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Russian Offices in China

wenshiang - 12/12/2005 at 00:13

Recently, there are a few rarely seen varities of stamps belonging to the Russian Offices in China showing up on eBay. Are they genuine?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56436...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56436...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56443...

I am new in this forum and hope to learn something from Rossica.

Gary - 12/12/2005 at 17:51

Michael, no Photoshop analysis? :-))

:!!

Bill Stoten - 12/13/2005 at 13:17

Hi Wenshiang,
The scans are not quite good enough to be sure, but all three look reasonable.
The 1k looks quite good. As far as I can see, the angle looks right, the ink colour is good and the impressions look as if they are from a proper letterpress.
The 2k double overprint is the more difficult to evaluate because of the density of the ink. There are some dubious areas on the overprint in terms of clarity of the impression, but if from a later printing, quite possibly a good example although I'm not familiar with this offset of the overprint.
Some advice is that I do know the seller who does specialise in better material and he is quite knowledgable. Best to contact him regarding evidence of authenticity - he's reasonable guy so that helps a lot.
The 10 dollar block also looks good, although I don't know the seller. The impressions are sharp and clear and is probably good. Best to see the stamp up close.
In all I'd guess from just the scans: 1k 97% OK; 2k 80+% OK and the 10$ 85% OK. Hope that helps

wenshiang - 12/14/2005 at 07:42

Thank you for your help.
There is another suspecious item posted on the recent Phila China auction in Hong Kong. Can you also take a look? When Dr. Ceresa found the so called Digital forgery, I was really thrilled.

Bill Stoten - 12/14/2005 at 17:44

Hi Wenshiang,
These aren't as rare as you think. And Gibbons rate them at around 20-30 times scarcer than the ordinary mint ovpt. which may be a little conservative From the examples I've seen I guess there's at least three sheets of these printed, but I've never seen one used, so I reckon they were circulated shall we say 'by favour' in SPb remembering that it was war-time - just look at the quantity of errors on the arms printing of that period. To be honest - I'm not sure, but I think they were overprinted in SPb so perhaps the errors didn't even get to China!!!
Is it genuine??? Comparing with scans only I repeat it's difficult to be sure but because of the embossing of the arms, it makes it easier to eliminate digital forgeries as you should be able to see lighter ink on the top of the embossing, while a denser ink 'well' is in the sunken part of the embossing. In this example, other characteristics (even at this low magnification) tend to suggest it's an original, as ink density, angle and sharpness of impression are right. My guess again it's probably 90% OK with a 10% chance of it being a very good forgery... that needs to be determined when you can see the reverse of the stamp etc. Hope that helps.

wenshiang - 12/14/2005 at 22:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Stoten
Hi Wenshiang,
These aren't as rare as you think. And Gibbons rate them at around 20-30 times scarcer than the ordinary mint ovpt. which may be a little conservative From the examples I've seen I guess there's at least three sheets of these printed, but I've never seen one used, so I reckon they were circulated shall we say 'by favour' in SPb remembering that it was war-time - just look at the quantity of errors on the arms printing of that period. To be honest - I'm not sure, but I think they were overprinted in SPb so perhaps the errors didn't even get to China!!!
Is it genuine??? Comparing with scans only I repeat it's difficult to be sure but because of the embossing of the arms, it makes it easier to eliminate digital forgeries as you should be able to see lighter ink on the top of the embossing, while a denser ink 'well' is in the sunken part of the embossing. In this example, other characteristics (even at this low magnification) tend to suggest it's an original, as ink density, angle and sharpness of impression are right. My guess again it's probably 90% OK with a 10% chance of it being a very good forgery... that needs to be determined when you can see the reverse of the stamp etc. Hope that helps.

Thank you for your detailed explanation.
For a normal overprint, Dr. Ceresa suggested in his book that the steep angle overprint (about 47 degrees) is probably faked. Since I have seen many examples of both the 37 and 47 degreess overprint, and also inverted ones for both angles, I believe both exist. What do you think?

Bill Stoten - 12/15/2005 at 15:20

Hi Wenshiang,
If Ray thinks this then I guess he's 99% correct. This example is about 37- 38 degrees (if viewed from the correct aspect, i.e. inverted). I have not see examples of this value with different angles which have characteristics of a genuine overpriint, i.e. unusual angled overprints are 90+% forgeries. Generally weird angles need to be treated with extreme caution unless the overprint is absolutely perfect in character and I don't believe this stamp exists with a genuine overprint in any other angle than 37-38 degrees.

wenshiang - 12/16/2005 at 07:52

Steep 7d overprints are actually plentiful. Let me show you some examples.

The first picture is from an eBay lot 1+ year ago. This lot contains a complete collection of stamps from Russian offices in China, including many rare varities. The lot was purchased by Scott-Philatelics in UK first, and sold again on eBay a few months later. Please see the example of 7d inverted.

China RUSSIAN PO '17 $7 INVERTED Surch MNH Scott Philatelics.jpg - 160kB

wenshiang - 12/16/2005 at 07:54

Here is another inverted example seen a few months ago on John Bull auction in Hong Kong.

wenshiang - 12/16/2005 at 08:02

Here is an used example of normal 37 degree overprint (my own collection, from Meiso Mizuhara), Harbin's cancel

wenshiang - 12/16/2005 at 08:04

and a steep regular overprint

amtc911 - 4/12/2008 at 19:42

I think both angles exist. Although it is difficult to tell from scans with regard to skilful forgeries, it is not so difficult if you inspect them in real. The ink colour eventhough is black is hard to forge.

amtc911 - 4/24/2008 at 13:05

Hey, there is another being offered by the current Cherrystone catalog with an enormous estimate/opening price!!!

amtc911 - 8/27/2016 at 06:38

Lot 3623, horizontal blk of 6 offered by InterAsia June 26-29 2016 sale is definitely wrong despite its RPSL 2014 cert.
I have seen this one before. Compared to the previous lot 3622 "single with wide margin", the 7 dollar ovpt. is different.

amtc911 - 8/27/2016 at 06:40

Horizontal blk of 6 offered by InterAsia June 26-29 2016 sale is definitely wrong despite its RPSL 2014 cert.
I have seen this one before. Compared to the previous lot 3622 "single with wide margin", the 7 dollar ovpt. is different.
Luckily Jeffrey withdrew the lot before the sale upon my advice.