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Author: Subject: Fill in the missing stamps!!!
Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 11/25/2005 at 14:49
Fill in the missing stamps!!!


My Favourite bed-time reading is T&S's Used abroad series... but I hate it when a good story has an unfinished ending! Some of the offices have missing issues. You know, where the 'RRR' turns into '?'. For a few years the BSRP issued a Used Abroad Chronicle where interested collectors could report new cancels or known cancels on unrecorded issues, most of the time on stamp only. With the opening of communications between the west and the east, surely more material has come to light and it's about time we filled the gaps in the revered tomes... So how about it?

My first find to report is from Mongolia...
Note the mangled date stamp found on the later issues and the date of the cancel, being after the damage was first identified on 13/1/05.... It looks like a serial 1 .... anyone got it in red??????
The higher values from the 1902-4 vertically laid issue is well represented with cancellations of type 4 (fraction date style) but the horizontally laid issue of 1889 has few and far between known cancels of this type. The 7 rubel issue falls into the '?' category....

So here it is...

scan0238.jpg - 197kB
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 12/20/2005 at 18:20
Postal Wagon 263 on Far East Republic


Here's another cancel on a stamp unrecorded by T&S. Admittedly it's a bit 'non-imperial' but demonstrates the use of the Imperial CER cancels after the formation of the Soviet. Issued in 1921, this 4kop stamp has the Harbin-Vladivostok TPO 263 cancel dated 8.5.22. Although theres a number of PW264s reported on this issue, 263s are always scarcer and on this issue, none recorded by T&S.... of course unless you know better ..........

scan0182.jpg - 475kB
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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 12/22/2005 at 19:54


I have a similar example, although looks fake to me.

TPO 259 on Siberia.jpg - 38kB
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 12/23/2005 at 19:56


While we're doing CER marks - how about the War Charity issues of 1915? Here's a picture postcard of train franked with a 1915 3+1k Charity cancelled PW264 - again unrecorded in T&S.... any others?

scan0186.jpg - 246kB
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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 12/23/2005 at 23:21


Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Stoten
I think Wenshiang's example is fine. The thin cancel seems to be typical of TPO259 as this part strike on a 70/1k perf seems to confirm the better example on piece.


The problem is the "red" stamp overprinted larger "70". The regular one should be "yellow".
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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 12/23/2005 at 23:36


Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Stoten
Here's another cancel on a stamp unrecorded by T&S. Admittedly it's a bit 'non-imperial' but demonstrates the use of the Imperial CER cancels after the formation of the Soviet. Issued in 1921, this 4kop stamp has the Harbin-Vladivostok TPO 263 cancel dated 8.5.22. Although theres a number of PW264s reported on this issue, 263s are always scarcer and on this issue, none recorded by T&S.... of course unless you know better ..........


I forwarded your message and picture to a discussion forum in Taiwan visited by collectors from the local, HongKong and China. The Russian PO in China, including the PO at the stations of CER, closed at the end of 1920 (actually the beginning of 1921). However, the train PO cancels were still in use until a Russo-Chinese treaty in 1924. (Translated from Chinese for information provided by the train cancel expert, Mr. Lin. I think you know him.)
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 12/24/2005 at 10:27


The 70 on 3k is a bit of a puzzle! Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees!!!!! It shouldn't exist - by catalogue standards - but I find it difficult to believe that the TPO cancel should be applied to a fake. We really need an expert opinion on this (stamp-wise that is). The cancel is the K&R R259.2 type so could the 70 on 3k be an error???? Is it time to check it out with Ray Ceresa?
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 12/24/2005 at 14:56


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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 12/24/2005 at 14:59


Deleted by author.

CER2.jpg - 24kB
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 12/24/2005 at 18:45


Ivo, what a nice assembly of marks and the card is a little cracker!
As for the Chita-Manchuli mark - It's most peculiar that a fairly esoteric cancel should be used to fake a used stamp... particularly as the cost of a used stamp isn't going to break the bank?? As I'm no expert in Siberian stuff, perhaps I underestimate the significance of the the combination. I'm wondering if the illustration of the mark in K&R is a copy of the faked cancel. If you take a peek in the 1st book, you'll see it illustrated. What do you think?

The use of the 263/4 marks on these Siberian stamps perhaps should be in the 'When is Used Abroad not Used Abroad' forum as the stamps were most probably applied in the Grodekovo - Nikolsk-Ussuiisk - Vladivostok section, i.e. on 'Russian/Soviet' Territory. Does anyone know if the Siberian stamps were valid on Manchurian soil?
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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 12/26/2005 at 08:18


Quote:
Originally posted by IvoSteijn
Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Stoten
The 70 on 3k is a bit of a puzzle! Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees!!!!! It shouldn't exist - by catalogue standards - but I find it difficult to believe that the TPO cancel should be applied to a fake. We really need an expert opinion on this (stamp-wise that is). The cancel is the K&R R259.2 type so could the 70 on 3k be an error???? Is it time to check it out with Ray Ceresa?


Actually, the postmark is a forgery, described by Ray Ceresa in his first Siberia book. The 70/3 kopeck stamp is also a forgery, I'm afraid. It's a curious forgery - I have two examples myself - and I can't rule out the existence of a genuine example as the Kolchak issue was rife with varieties.


Take a look of the middle one. It is probably a genuine 70k on 3k red. The forged 70 k is larger in size.

Siberia_70k_on_red_3k.jpg - 63kB
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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 12/26/2005 at 08:23


Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Stoten
Ivo, what a nice assembly of marks and the card is a little cracker!
As for the Chita-Manchuli mark - It's most peculiar that a fairly esoteric cancel should be used to fake a used stamp... particularly as the cost of a used stamp isn't going to break the bank?? As I'm no expert in Siberian stuff, perhaps I underestimate the significance of the the combination. I'm wondering if the illustration of the mark in K&R is a copy of the faked cancel. If you take a peek in the 1st book, you'll see it illustrated. What do you think?

The use of the 263/4 marks on these Siberian stamps perhaps should be in the 'When is Used Abroad not Used Abroad' forum as the stamps were most probably applied in the Grodekovo - Nikolsk-Ussuiisk - Vladivostok section, i.e. on 'Russian/Soviet' Territory. Does anyone know if the Siberian stamps were valid on Manchurian soil?



35 K green Siberia stamp used in Harbin, 1919, with harbin cancels and a Changchun IJPO cancel, addressed to California, USA.

This is one of the three covers with same 35K Siberia stamps I have seen, all by the same sender.

Harbin_Siberia_stamp_front.jpg - 66kB
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 12/26/2005 at 10:50


Yes, the Kolchak issues are recorded in T&S. Covers rating RR and the above is a super example of use 'Abroad'. They were valid before the agreement to close the Russian POs, whilsy ssues from 1920 from the other issuing authorities wouldn't be valid... so maybe only Kolchak overprints should be classified as having 'Used Abroad' status??? What about the higher values, 70k (probably pays the foreign rate ... what about rubel bearing covers .... any hope????
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[*] posted on 12/26/2005 at 19:34


Quote:
Originally posted by IvoSteijn
The old CER oval postmarks were phased out sometime during the summer of 1923, to be replaced by double-circle postmarks showing the new, shorter route that excluded the Manchurian section of the railway altogether.


This 1923 262 postmark is not used between Manchulli and Harbin as a regular one. The city name on the left reads like "Vladivostok". Does anyone know where the city is on the right side of this postmark?
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[*] posted on 12/26/2005 at 22:34


Ivo Steijn has posted this answer:

In mid-1923, route numbers for the TPOs formerly serving the CER were
reassigned. 261-262 became Vladivostok-Pogranichnaya, 263-264 became
Vladivostok-Kangauz, 265-266 eventually became Bochkarevo-Vladivostok
although there was a intermediate phase when the old numbers 153/154
were used for that route.

As for the 70/3, I illustrate three copies from my collection. The
rightmost copy is clearly a forgery. The other two are more difficult
to determine, although I do not like the color of the ink or the shape
of the "0" and regard them both as forgeries. They are both signed
"BRYUN" on the back.

My apologies for using a friend to post this. My previous postings in
this thread were as an "invited guest" but this status was terminated
abruptly a little later. I have been unable to find the reason for this
in the Samovar rules.

70_on_3[1].jpg - 112kB
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MICHAEL MACKENZIE
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[*] posted on 12/26/2005 at 23:50


The basic stamp was a typograph printing. You can see the raised design on the back of mint issues. This overprint was also printed by typography. Two things that you can look for on mint issue to help authenticate the overprint: 1. Looking at the back of the stamp, the overprinted numbers should appear raised like the basic stamp design. 2. Looking at the front, there should be a darker/heavier outline around the numbers.
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 12/27/2005 at 17:39


Michael,
The 70 on 1k stamp illustrated above with the part strike...has a dark line outlining the numbers... does that mean the overprint is likely genuine....? Please take a look... as it's interesting that if the overprint's correct... and room for even more speculation ;-).
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 12/27/2005 at 18:35


okay... but why bother - are the catalogue prices for used Kolchaks that far wrong .... and why use a faked CER (not even really a CER either) TPO cancel? Was it for Used Abroad collectors... say after T&S's publications... to get a premium price? This wasn't even described in T&S so it's even more puzzling....
I wonder if there's a 'list' of faked CER cancels .... anyone know??
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 12/27/2005 at 19:00


Ivo, I can understand the forged overprints being cancelled but my point is why bother on the genuine overprints?? It seems overkill just to legitimise fakes with a TPO as I imagine they're more difficult to make than an ordinary Siberian cds ... but .... who knows the thought processes of the faker...
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MICHAEL MACKENZIE
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[*] posted on 12/27/2005 at 23:05


Let us suppose the crooked stamp dealer has a stock of 10,000 mint issues. He sells 1000 of these the first month, then 500 the next month and in the third month, 100. In the middle of the third month, all of his customers start asking for used stamps. Of course he doesn't have any. By the 4th month, he has 8400 mint stamps, 0 used stamps, but plenty of customers asking for used. The crooked dealer isn't necessarily interested in a high price for his stamps; (Although he will get as much as his can.) he simply wants to sell them.
One final observation: In my eyes, the partial strike cancellation appears to be roughly 1/4 of the entire cancellation. It is just too reminiscent of more contemporary CTO's in my opinion.
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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 12/28/2005 at 10:17


Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Stoten
Yes, the Kolchak issues are recorded in T&S. Covers rating RR and the above is a super example of use 'Abroad'. They were valid before the agreement to close the Russian POs, whilsy ssues from 1920 from the other issuing authorities wouldn't be valid... so maybe only Kolchak overprints should be classified as having 'Used Abroad' status??? What about the higher values, 70k (probably pays the foreign rate ... what about rubel bearing covers .... any hope????


Another superb example was found on Mizuhara's collection. Here is the picture on his book. The rate was also 70k from Harbin to Vladivostok. Another 70k was affixed to the back of the cover for redirecting to Shanghai.

1919_Harbin_Vladivostok_Shanghai.jpg - 193kB
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