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Author: Subject: Harbin provisional
wenshiang
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[*] posted on 1/30/2006 at 20:43
Harbin provisional


Tchilinghirian and Ceresa's books say that the Harbin provisional surcharged stamps were issued in Oct. 1920. So, what happened to this post card? It was cancelled on May 20, 1920 at Harbin-Pier. This photo was from Cherrystone catalogue about 2 years ago.

2660-2.jpg - 56kB
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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 1/31/2006 at 13:35


I'm tempted to go for the option that T&S are correct and October 1920 was the issue date. That can only mean that the overprints are faked. It's probably not impossible to lift the arms stamps and fake the overprint. I'd like to have it in my hands to really see the overprint/postmark combination. The postmarks look good but the overprints wouldn't be too difficult to fake.
Now.... I'm going to check all my used o/prints to see if I have a pre-October date... anyone else got an opinion??
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[*] posted on 1/31/2006 at 18:28


I agree with achlenov. Dr. J. B. Buchsbayew, Cherrystone, would not knowingly list a forgery.
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 2/1/2006 at 00:34


Two possibilities:
1. It was a cancelled(and backdated)-by-favor production, to which the address (and message?) was added later. In that case the ink of the address should be on top of the Harbin Pristan postmark.
2. T&S wrote a series of fine books, but they did write them 50 years ago! A lot of additional information and corrections have been published in the BJRP's Used Abroad Chronicle and possibly there is more recent information about the period of use of these stamps.




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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 2/1/2006 at 04:32


Does anyone know how to purchase "the BJRP's Used Abroad Chronicle "?
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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 2/1/2006 at 04:35


One more example of the pre-Oct 1920's cancel on the Harbin provisional:

Bukhedu 1920.5.?0

Picture from p148, M. Mizuhara's "A century of the Manchurian postal history".

1920 7 10 cent on 10 k over 7 k.jpg - 227kB
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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 2/1/2006 at 05:00


Quote:
Another example was found.

1 Cent. on 1 k
cancelled date: 1920.7.20


Picture from p159, M. Mizuhara's "A century of the Manchurian postal history".


1920.7 1 cent.jpg - 112kB
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 2/1/2006 at 11:22


Quote:
Originally posted by wenshiang
Does anyone know how to purchase "the BJRP's Used Abroad Chronicle "?


It was a series of articles in the BJRP, published in the course of 30 years after T&S was published. The Chronicle has never been collected and published separately. Raymond Casey's current series of articles in the BJRP is the closest thing to a "wrap-up" of the subjects as we'll see, but he has a lot of ground to cover!

If you are looking for anything in particular I can start photocopying the relevant pages for you, but it might take some time - I'm in the middle of moving house!




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wenshiang
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[*] posted on 2/1/2006 at 11:35


Quote:
Originally posted by IvoSteijn
Quote:
Originally posted by wenshiang
Does anyone know how to purchase "the BJRP's Used Abroad Chronicle "?


It was a series of articles in the BJRP, published in the course of 30 years after T&S was published. The Chronicle has never been collected and published separately. Raymond Casey's current series of articles in the BJRP is the closest thing to a "wrap-up" of the subjects as we'll see, but he has a lot of ground to cover!

If you are looking for anything in particular I can start photocopying the relevant pages for you, but it might take some time - I'm in the middle of moving house!


Thank you very much. I only need something about the Russian Post Offices in China. I'll very appreciate if you can provide me new information. It is not quite possible for me to access BJRP here.
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[*] posted on 2/1/2006 at 15:03


I happened to see this same postcards many years ago by its former owner. I did not take notice then on the date but the overprints looked genuine. I do not exclude the possibility that the stamps were issued earlier but doubt it. Also the franking arises questions. A set of Imperial stamps was overprinted in 1917 proceeding from 1 cent = 1 pre-war kopeck. Probably, this was true in 1920 as well. Thus, we have in this case 10 cents or 10 gold kopecks (?). However, as much as I know, the Kolchak Siberian and later FER (Vladivostok) rates were applied at Russian post offices in Manchuria. According to the latter, the ordinary postcard rate should be 3 kop or 3 cents (inland) or 4 kop or 4 cents (foreign). Conclusions...
Personally, I am inclined to the version of favour production. Most probably, the cancellers found themselves in private hands after the closure of the Russian post offices on the C.E.R. or it were the retired postal officials who used this occassion.
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[*] posted on 2/2/2006 at 16:46


Well... searching through my examples of provisionals I seem to have come up with a 2x.7.20 cancel (Fig 1)! It's not the clearest of marks but it's another 'b' Harbin Pier branch!!!
Of all the many others... not one with a plain ol' Harbin.. !! So I've checked all other Harbin Pristan 'b's... I have 'b's from prior to 1920 on various issues... the conclusion is that the postmark described by wen shiang is not the same as the pre 1920 marks (Fig 2). There are subtle differences in alignment of date bars and text which suggest another cancel or... if I may be so bold ... a forged one. The key to this is another example of the 2x.7.20 (where the 2x is 26) I found on a 5 rouble Kitai... (Fig 3) ... diagrams coming up!
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[*] posted on 2/2/2006 at 16:47


Fig 1

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[*] posted on 2/2/2006 at 17:18


So.... I hope you can all see enough to raise doubts. The subtle differences in alignment may be explainable... but unless the 2nth of July 1920 was a special period for all sorts of ovprints (ahemmm!!!) why should a Kitai be cancelled around the same date as a few other provisionals.... I suppose the kindest thought is Aleps' 'by favour' suggestion... although ... I wonder if the cancel's still around?? AND ... is the Bukedu one still around. After all these marks are not common and even a knowledgeable philatelist can be mistaken (and even an less knowledgeable one - me too!!). The only confident way to be able to get to the truth I suppose is a good collection of marks on stamps to back-up the esoteric covers which may appear at whopping prices.... especially for us collectors with a fat wallet... (not me though - this time!).

A final thought is ... when does 'by favour' cancelled material become a plain ol' fake???
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[*] posted on 2/3/2006 at 11:16


I'm not sure I believe there are forged postmarks at work here and I'm very reluctant to call anything a forgery based on a not-very-clear, not-very-high-resolution illustration from an auction. From the loose examples you illustrate I don't see enough clear differences to say they are different postmarks - wear and the usual variation in postmark strikes could cover pretty much everything I'm seeing, unless you have a particular feature in mind?

By the way, I don't doubt that the Harbin Pristan postmark was also used for cancellations-by-favor, and your loose stamps may simply demonstrate that when those stamps were cancelled they no longer had any spare day/month dateplugs available, hence the "fixed date".




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[*] posted on 2/3/2006 at 12:54


It's certainly true that wear and tear can damage postmarks but ... combined with having the entire stamp to hand and a greater resolution than the web site will manage, there's certainly a difference in the width of the date slug, its alignment and the shape of the letter b... It seems to me unusual that no ordinary Harbin cancels are found on an issue which was theoretically issued in the summer of 1920... 4/5 months without an example??? ... unless of course anyone has an item that shows otherwise... the text-books are waiting to be re-written...!!
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[*] posted on 2/3/2006 at 18:19


Spot on!
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 2/3/2006 at 19:50


Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Stoten
It's certainly true that wear and tear can damage postmarks but ... combined with having the entire stamp to hand and a greater resolution than the web site will manage, there's certainly a difference in the width of the date slug, its alignment and the shape of the letter b...


I'll take your word for it. But how does this apply to the postcard that was the subject of the question?




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Bill Stoten
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[*] posted on 2/4/2006 at 04:30


Hmmmm....
I'm no prosecuting lawyer so I've just presented my opinion (for Wenshiang) on the facts I have to hand. I stand by my original guess that T&S were about right in their date of issue and the postcard was probably fabricated either 'by favour' as Alep suggests or a very attractive forgery... If we could just find a 'decent' Harbin cancel on the overprints prior to October 1920 in the postcard's defence!!
There may be a message here for PO in China (Abroad) collectors though - and it's just to treat novelties with caution and of course ... " if it looks too good to be true .... it probably is..."
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[*] posted on 2/4/2006 at 14:02


I offer here images with incomplete strikes of Kharbin-Pristan and Bukhedu "b" postmarks. Although my eyes do not allow a confident comparison, it looks to me, however, that the strikes on the postcard were made, at least, from genuine devices. This does not mean, however, that the entire itself is fully genuine!

Bukhedu.jpg - 15kB
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[*] posted on 2/4/2006 at 16:33


WOW!!!
This is great.... !!! A Used Abroad collector's dream! Postmarks galore!! I'm now going to check my Bukhedus... But just to keep the debate going... Alep's Pristan is a 'v' not a 'b' ... check the intersection of the lower right date slug line in relation to the 'N' of OTDELEN (that's the easy one) ... so you can see how difficult identification can be...
As Arnie says... "I'll be back ...."
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[*] posted on 2/4/2006 at 17:01


Here's two more Pristans.... note the intersection as before..

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[*] posted on 2/4/2006 at 17:03


And a nice Bukhedu block ... plenty of cancels here ... wish it was on cover ;-) ....
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[*] posted on 2/4/2006 at 17:09


As you can see... I hope ... its a little different from Alep's 'b' but I reckon they have a common origin, perhaps the 'b' has been repaired and the year date slug has been replaced by a larger font ... damage? Even so the weight of the impression tends to support Alep's Bukhedu 'b' While the line weight on the card and the piece suggest otherwise...
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[*] posted on 2/4/2006 at 18:26


Should we start new session?
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[*] posted on 2/4/2006 at 18:35


We're still waiting for the plain Harbin cds on provisionals pre Oct 1920!!! Aren't there any????
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