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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 01:20


Please keep in mind that I found those stamps in more or less junk collection. Nobody tried to sell them as proofs, rarities, etc. Can I consider them as genuine stamps?
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Gary
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 04:12


Is there nothing in the existing literature on this subject that can be used to help?
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red1999
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 06:58


hello,

being from Germany i sent my stuff to mr. hovest. he was very professional and fast. i was very satisfied.

i have to agree to my foreposter. i collect Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia only 1920-23. to my knowledge there is no a single expert who can offer certification services at this time. i bought a collection of Armenia overprinted stamps from Mr. Pateman which was offered as forgeries only. interestingly the collection seemed to be almost whole, only perhaps 10 from over 100 stamps were removed. those that Mr. Pateman thought to be genuine!
when you buy those stamps on ebay or from a "normal" dealer, what can you expect?
i fear most of them are forgeries. still all dealers sell them with prices according to catalog as the real thing...

same story with civil war overprint stamps.

cheers,
stefan
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red1999
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 07:02


Quote:
Originally posted by igorfmyask
Please keep in mind that I found those stamps in more or less junk collection. Nobody tried to sell them as proofs, rarities, etc. Can I consider them as genuine stamps?


well that is up to you ;-)

but i would not.

perhaps dr. klein bpp germany has some advice. he certifies baltic war overprints, studies ink and uses microscope and spectral analysis.

hth
stefan
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 10:49


Quote:
Originally posted by igorfmyask
Please keep in mind that I found those stamps in more or less junk collection. Nobody tried to sell them as proofs, rarities, etc. Can I consider them as genuine stamps?

Ceresa describes some of them in his volume on South Russia as essays for the 100R/1k issue (which, as far as I know, was never issued). However, he only describes surcharges on the low-value stamps, I don't think he even mentions surcharges on the ruble values.

In my opinion (and here is where "expertise" gets blended with a healthy knowledge of statistics) it is extremely unlikely that these are forgeries, simply because no forger would be aware of their existence in the first place.
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 10:55


Quote:
Originally posted by red1999
i have to agree to my foreposter. i collect Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia only 1920-23. to my knowledge there is no a single expert who can offer certification services at this time. i bought a collection of Armenia overprinted stamps from Mr. Pateman which was offered as forgeries only. interestingly the collection seemed to be almost whole, only perhaps 10 from over 100 stamps were removed. those that Mr. Pateman thought to be genuine!
when you buy those stamps on ebay or from a "normal" dealer, what can you expect?
i fear most of them are forgeries. still all dealers sell them with prices according to catalog as the real thing...

same story with civil war overprint stamps.

Well, I'd agree with you on Armenia (where it is still not uncommon to find entire collections consisting of the same forged overprint). The percentage of forged overprints there is between 90% and 98%. Other Civil War areas are quite different. As I'm sure you will know, the first Soviet definitives of Georgia were forged, but the forgeries are actually harder to find than the genuines. For some Siberian issues, forgeries are MUCH harder to find than the genuine stamps (which are difficult enough).

So I don't think the horrible example of Armenia should be used to condemn all Civil War stamps. Become your own expert, is Igor's excellent advice.
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 12:57


These proofs are described in the A.Rosselevitch's article "Overprints of General Wrangel in Crimea and Constantinople" (Journal of the Rossica Society of Russian Philately. 1958, No. 55, pages 5-8). Dr. Ceresa referenced this article and added some comments in his catalog (vol. 3, parts 6-12, pages 125-130).

The following overprints were (or supposed to be) made:
On kopeck stamps: 10, 15, 25, 50, 100, 200, 400, and 500 rubles
On ruble stamps: 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 7000, and 10000 rubles.

Dr. Ceresa did not mention surcharges on the ruble values because part of the Rosselevitch's original text in Russian was missed in English copy of Rossica Journal:
"... а на рублёвых достоинствах - 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 7000 и 10.000 рублей." (One more good reason to study Russian!)

I have no doubt (except 15 and 50 rub) that stamps are genuine because this is extremely hard to find genuine stamps to use them as models to make forgeries. Plus the surcharge fonts are the same as fonts used in other Wrangel (Crimea) issues.
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 13:37


Note on Armenia stamps.

I have found in Artashes Taroumian's (expert of Armenian Philately) catalog "Postage stamps of Armenia", Vol. 1, references to 7-rub Imperial stamp (1919 issue, type II, pages 20, 34, 35, 46, 54, and 66). Those stamps were printed in RSFSR and there is no possibility to overprint them in Armenia under the Dashnak rule (1918-1920). Looks like somebody saved rubber stamps after Dashnaks suddenly disappeared from Yerevan in November 29, 1920 and created more overprints later.
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tedim2
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 15:47


Quote:
Originally posted by ameis33
Sad consideration, but which is the average age of stamp collectors?
When i go to the philatelic market in Warszawa, i'm the youngest (35...). No jokes... It would be interesting to know the age of the Rossica forum's guests...
The question is not where is russian philately going... You should ask yourself where is philately going...
How to collect collectors? The promise of an easy gain is long passed...


I'm 34 going on 50.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 16:11


Hmmm. I envisioned a much younger person.:o
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 16:14


Some delusions are treatable some are not...
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red1999
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 16:21


Quote:
Originally posted by IvoSteijn

... As I'm sure you will know, the first Soviet definitives of Georgia were forged, but the forgeries are actually harder to find than the genuines.
...
So I don't think the horrible example of Armenia should be used to condemn all Civil War stamps. Become your own expert, is Igor's excellent advice.


you probably think about the second set of azerbaijan's definitives? the forgeries are quite rare and forged stamps are 10 times or more expensive than the genuine ones

i absolutely agree with you on the second statement. even more, i think those armenian overprint stamps are extremely interesting and challenging. at the moment i am trying to learn to separate the forge overprints from the genuine ones. i guess that will keep me occupied for quite some time. ;-)

stefan
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Gary
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 16:34


So, here we are almost 90 years later with little information. What does this tell us? Just curious.
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 17:03


Quote:
Originally posted by red1999
Quote:
Originally posted by IvoSteijn

... As I'm sure you will know, the first Soviet definitives of Georgia were forged, but the forgeries are actually harder to find than the genuines.


you probably think about the second set of azerbaijan's definitives? the forgeries are quite rare and forged stamps are 10 times or more expensive than the genuine ones


No, I was thinking about the first Soviet Georgian definitives of 1922. The forgeries (cruder printing, whiter paper) are quite hard to find in my experience...
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 4/16/2007 at 18:23


Ivo is right. Some Civil War forgeries are extremely hard to find. I still do not have full set of Denikin issue forgeries.
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Alep
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[*] posted on 4/17/2007 at 12:18


As concerns the Armenian overprints, their handstaps were preserved at the Erivan post office. A certain collector and stamp dealer named Melik-Pashaev arrived from Tiflis in 1921 with stocks of Imperial stamps, inc. Soviet late prints, offering his services (asistance, consulations etc) to the young and unexperienced postal authorities of Soviet Armenia. He was admitted at the post offices and prepared a number of reprints on his own and remaining post office stocks using the genuine handstamps. He is known also as the perpretator of the so-called first Armenian SSR issue (overprint of Soviet star and new values) that was prepared for speculative purposes (officially!) but never came to postal use.
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 4/17/2007 at 16:00


Thank you Alexander. I just found that RSFSR Imperial sheets could not be overpinted in Dashnak Armenia. Now I understand who overprinted Romanov set and other non-definitives but I am still not sure who overprinted postal saving stamps.
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red1999
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[*] posted on 4/20/2007 at 02:52


Quote:
Originally posted by Alep
As concerns the Armenian overprints, their handstaps were preserved at the Erivan post office. A certain collector and stamp dealer named Melik-Pashaev arrived from Tiflis in 1921 with stocks of Imperial stamps, inc. Soviet late prints, offering his services (asistance, consulations etc) to the young and unexperienced postal authorities of Soviet Armenia. He was admitted at the post offices and prepared a number of reprints on his own and remaining post office stocks using the genuine handstamps. He is known also as the perpretator of the so-called first Armenian SSR issue (overprint of Soviet star and new values) that was prepared for speculative purposes (officially!) but never came to postal use.


that is very interesting! may i ask, where did you get this information?

stefan
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achlenov
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[*] posted on 4/20/2007 at 11:29


It's like asking an editor of the Encyclopedia for a reference :)
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 4/20/2007 at 11:40


Quote:
Originally posted by red1999
that is very interesting! may i ask, where did you get this information?

There is a description of Melik-Pasha's activities in Ceresa's books on Armenia. I recommend the Armenia books, they're very informative and indispensable when identifying forgeries.
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[*] posted on 4/20/2007 at 12:28


You should also look in the book "Pochta i pochtovye marki Armenii" (Post and Postage Stamps of Armenia) by Zakiyan & Saltykov published in Russian in Erevan, 1988 as well as an ancient article by Saltykov in Sovetski Kollektsioner # 5. Also some other dealers from Tiflis, inc. the late Serebryakian, took part in these events.
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 4/20/2007 at 16:38


I can recommend two more books:

Christopher Zakiyan, Postage Stamps, Fiscal Stamps, Postage Cancels (2003, in Russian, Armenian, and English) This is updated edition of "Pochta i pochtovye marki Armenii" (Post and Postage Stamps of Armenia) by Zakiyan & Saltykov published in 1988.

Suren Arakelov, Filatelisticheskaya Armeniya (2002, in Russian)
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red1999
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[*] posted on 4/21/2007 at 07:01


thanks for all the answers!

besides the ceresa book, where can i buy those books? probably not on amazon ;-)

guess i have to learn more russian too...

stefan
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Gary
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[*] posted on 4/21/2007 at 08:02


If Armenia is your desire, you might want to visit:

http://www.trevorpateman.co.uk/
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 4/21/2007 at 10:00


I have found Arakelov in Armenian but you can ask seller about books in English and Russian.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SIGNED-Armenian-Stamps-ARMENIA-Philately...

All editions were very limited:

Arakelov - 750 copies
Zakian - 500 copies

There is ArTar (Artashes Taroumian) catalog web site:

http://www.artarcatalog.com/
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