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Author: Subject: B7 or B12 or What?
msmike
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[*] posted on 6/21/2003 at 20:56
B7 or B12 or What?


Seems to be my date to turn to y'all with questions. Attached (now I know how to do it) is three stamps. The right one I know is a B7 perf 11 1\2 and the left one is a B12 perf 12 1\2 but the middle one is in question. It appears to be a B12 perf 11 1\2 but was not suppose to be used. I have tried to zoom the cancel and have tried bringing it out as much as I can without much success. Although we know a B12 perf 12 1\2 unused does exist according to several sources, no one mentions a used one. Anyone have any speculation on this?
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Rusalka
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 02:33


All my references claim that only ONE 7-Kopek on white paper was ever printed in this series. That was the p12.5. However it was not placed into official circulation. I would not discount genuine used copies.

I am puzzled by the p11.5 stamp. Only Lobachevsky acknowledges that this stamp may exist, but claims it was never placed into general circulation.

The is a further reference which may be useful published by the B.S.R.P. "Special Catalogue of Russian Postage Stamps" by J. Reynolds in 1957. It may clear up this query for you.

I would be VERY interested to hear from other members concerning this stamp.

All my copies are only P 12.5 mint. ;)
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Rusalka
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 03:10


I have taken a closer look at the central "mystery" stamp. I find that I am unable to match up the p 11.5 perforations of the stamp on the right with those of the middle stamp.

Are you sure that the central stamp is p 11.5?

Is there any chance that the central stamp is actually B7 which has been "processed" to lighten the buff colour, and make it appear as white paper? It may also go to explain the lack of definition of the cancel.

Now I am intrigued:o
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hlovitz
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 09:17


My collection is from Gregory Salisbury. I have his original book and he noted that B12 "exists only in this perforation"-- 12 1/2. I have a mint and a mint block only.

I also have the 3K and the 10K, mint and used in the perfs of 11 1/2, 12 1/2 and 13 1/2.
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hlovitz
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 10:44


I think that the following exerpt from an article on Semi-Postals in Journal 44 by Sklaverski should be of interest in this thread.

"3rd issue- in 1915...the stamps of the previous issue were re-issued on white chalky paper, perf. 11 1/2, 12 1/2 and 13 1/2, with the exception of 7kop. which was issued only perf. 12 1/2.

The reason these stamps were printed on white paper is because of the difficulty of obtaining dyes from Germany, because of WW1...It may be stated here that because of rise in postal rates from 7 Kop to 10 Kop, the 7 Kop value became unecessary and therefore it was issued. Has any one seen cancelled copies of 7 Kop, on or off cover?... Although all the catalogues list the 7 Kop value perf. 12 1/2 only, the 11 1/2 perforation guage was also used to perforate sheets of the 7 Kop value. For some unknown reason while the regular stamp is perf 12 1/2, the specimen is perforated 11 1/2"


This creates the possiblity that it could be genuine (of course, if it was not altered)
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Andrey
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 11:23
And my 2 cents...


7 kop. stamps on buff and white paper were printed in different colors.

7 kop. buff paper stamps were printed
in dark brown/dark green and
7 kop. white paper stamps were printed
in brow/green.

Looking on the stamp in questions
I can match its color to the stamp on buff
paper only.

Yes, the are few copies known of this stamp on white paper with perforation 11.5.

Yes, there are specimens of this stamp on white paper with perf. 11.5.

So what is our stamp in questions?

Specimen with overprint omitted?
Nope - the color does not match.

Original ? Nope again - color does not much.

Altered 11.5 perf. stamp on buff paper.
It is very strong possibility especially taking in consideration the
imperfection of color in the bottom
part of the stamp.

:D:D:D:D
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IvoSteijn
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 12:06
Used stamps....


It might not even be a conscious "alteration" of the stamp. The stamp may have been soaked off with some detergent that affected the buff background but not the main colors. Net result: a stamp that looks as if it's on white paper.
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GregMirsky
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 15:17


As somebody wrote earlier - 7 kop. stamp on white paper was not released to post offices, since September 15, 1914 the rate for a letters was increased from 7 kop. to 10 kop. BUT, later these stamps were sold to philatelists.
I can imagine that nothing could prevent somebody to stick this stamp on the letter or make "favor" cancellation. It can easily explain "used" 7 kop. stamp.

Alexander's example of used 7 kop with 1918 cancellation can be used as a prove of my statement. I believe that it is MUCH harder to find used copy from the 1914. Ooops! I meant - 1915.




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Gary
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 16:49


Does this belong in the Counterfits/Fakes/Forgeries section?
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msmike
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 19:48


Now I am adding to my own thread. Attached is a block of four of the B12 with perf 11.5 and a speciman overprint. Unless you see something I don't I have no reason to believe that the specimen is forged nor than stamp is not genuine. Does this make the discussion more interesting? Hmmmm!!!!!;)
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hlovitz
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 19:54


See my previous note. It was reissued on white chalky paper. An analysis of the paper on the middle stamp comparing it to the dyed paper of the stamp on the right (B7) would establish if it was altered or not. A good microscope might do it.

All past authirities seem to agree that it did not exits for postal use. It may have been perforated at 11 1/2 for Specimen stamps only. Even if so, it was not officially sanctioned. If it was used inadvertenly, how was the word for specimen taken out?

Short of the "paper test", I would conclude that it was altered. It is not reasonable to say that only one such item has ever surfaced. Sklaverski's era could not find any.

This thread belongs in the Fqke section.
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Rusalka
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[*] posted on 6/22/2003 at 19:54


Please look at the perfs of the cenrtal stamp. They are NOT the same as the p 11.5 stamp on the right.

The "mystery" stamp is a an altered B7, which would then make it a forgery as Gary suggests. The other feature is that the colouring as Andrey points out is streaky, strongly suggesting chemical interference.

Alexander's stamp is not the same as THIS example, which appears genuine and rarely seen as such.

The fact that are unable to see the date exactly where the streaks are would also strongly suggest that the stamp was altered to hide the fact that it was cancelled prior to 1918, which would confirm it was indeed a B7.
;)
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Jeff
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study.gif posted on 12/23/2005 at 13:05
Need new images for these


If you all remember about a year ago, our Samovar was hacked by some moron :hair and we had to remove it from the server. Many of the older postings lost their images. If you have these still, please revisit the posting, click on edit and repost the images.

Thanks,

Jeff




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