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Author: Subject: Need some explanations: Warsaw postmark
samuel
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[*] posted on 5/16/2007 at 15:28
Need some explanations: Warsaw postmark


I have a few questions concerning this postcard from Warsaw to Switzerland.

* According to Kiryushkin and Robinson (Russian postmarks): “This postmark … was always accompanied by a separate datestamp”. The datestamp is missing on this postcard, is this something unusual?

* Warsaw postmark has No. 3. Are there any other towns with the same postmark but just a different No. ?

* Where can I find information about postage rates (web, literature)?

Any Help Is Appreciated

Regards,

Samuel

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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 5/16/2007 at 21:45


There are summarized tables of rates in the Liapin, Zagorski and Epstein catalogs.

There are many articles on postal rates in the Rossica Journal on the internet:

http://www.uflib.ufl.edu/UFDC/UFDC.aspx?s=rosj&m=hsb0

Here is a set of tables on the internet:

http://www.sijtzereurich.nl/postal_rates_Latvia1.html#Y02

This looks like the 4k foreign postal card rate of 8 Mar 1889.
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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 5/25/2007 at 19:06


Here is an example of 1st Ekspeditsiya No. 3 with additional date stamp.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RUSSIA-4-intr-covers-cards-to-GERMANY-18...
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ameis33
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[*] posted on 5/26/2007 at 12:18


If i don't make mistakes, Ivo called these kind of postmarks "the Warsaw Killer". In effect, they were thought to make more damages as possible to stamps to prevent their reuse. In this shape, they were used just in Warsaw, but similar postmarks were used in other places. Correct me if i'm wrong, but St. Petersbourg should have something like. Also, in the austrian empire similar postmarks but in octagonal shape with the name of the town inside were also in use.
There are two basic shapes. The first with date stamp inside, as in the following picture

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ameis33
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[*] posted on 5/26/2007 at 12:21


Even if the previous kind of postmark already had the date stamp, a second stamp with the datary was also applied.

The second shape is without the datestamp, but with the serial number #2 or #3 (i don't know others). I don't have the #3 to show (still looking for it), but samuel already posted it. Here a #2 serial.

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ameis33
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[*] posted on 5/26/2007 at 12:22


But later on, similar postmarks but in more freak shape were also in use. I have just this sample to show

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ameis33
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[*] posted on 5/26/2007 at 13:00


The serial number in the previous picture is #1. Doesn't the serial number on this letter seem #3? So, we should expect also a #2... Some more? I have seen (but i don't have) similar postmarks in at least another (two?) fashion... Can someone add more?

What's the serial number for?

Comparing the last two postmarks with the firsts, the shape is basically the same, but the lasts are thicker and blurred. Could it be they're a new kind of postmark or it's just the same but more used?

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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 5/26/2007 at 13:18


Is it just a coincidence that all these covers with Warsaw "killers" are to foreign destinations?
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ameis33
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[*] posted on 5/26/2007 at 13:26


Petrokow (today Piotrkow Tribunalski) is not abroad... But i don't have at the moment this cover in my hand, i can't check... i'll came back...
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ameis33
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[*] posted on 9/25/2007 at 16:46


Quote:

Is it just a coincidence that all these covers with Warsaw "killers" are to foreign destinations?


Since i've heard this question i started taking care to all letters/postcards carrying this kind of postmarks, and i must say all the ones i could see are in effect to foreign destinations, all except the previous letter to Petrokow...

Could anyone post some other letter/postcard with the same postmark used within Russia?
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Gary
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[*] posted on 9/25/2007 at 17:12


Can anyone add information about which ehkspeditsiya handled what or did what during this period? The marks shown so far are for the 1st and the 4th (1 example), but mainly the 1st office.
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ameis33
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[*] posted on 9/26/2007 at 12:48


The last kind of these postmarks. I think there shouldn't be other subtypes, but if i make a mistake, please, correct me...
The postcard has been franked with 10k. Isn't it overfranked?
I added also a printed matter... Nothing new, but the card was nice...

I think i've got just now what Gary said. Standing to Prigara, these postmarks are known:
- With "Varshava" on the first line, "1 Ehksp" on the second and "N° 1", "N° 2" or "N° 3" in the third and without date inside
- With "Varshava" on the first line, date in the second and "1 EhKSP" on the third
- With "Varshava" on the first line, date in the second and "IV Kont." on the third

Despite i can't read the third line, i think the last postmark i've shown is just this last type (by exclusion, the other two types were already been shown...)
So they were in use in 1st and in the 4th expedition office...



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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 9/26/2007 at 15:59


10k is way overfranked for an Imperial postcard.

Maybe it was the only stamp the sender had at the moment.
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ameis33
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[*] posted on 9/27/2007 at 16:59


I didn't notice the second postmark... So we have a 4th office datestamp together with a 1st office cancel... Did this letter really visit so many offices or there was a lack of devices and one office borrow its own to the other?
I don't know which kind of mail did the two offices handle, but i also don't know where to find such information. What i've done up to now is to look all letters which i could find, and i can assure all was addressed abroad (except the one to Piotrkow... good, must be rare...)
But i've begun my post with "i didn't notice..."
I renew my request, could someone else post a letter with this postmark used inside Russia?
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Gary
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[*] posted on 9/27/2007 at 17:15


To the best of my knowledge, Polish postmarks have not been published very much after 1860. I did ask POLONUS a while back for information and basically got a "there isn't any." Given that, I think this is a fertile field for study. But that is just my opinion.
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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 9/27/2007 at 19:10


Mail did move between offices in large cities.

Look at the great cover that Gary posted:

http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1637#pid93...
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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 10/3/2007 at 18:37


Another case where Kiryushkin and Robinson (Russian postmarks): “This postmark … was always accompanied by a separate datestamp” does not apply.

But, then again, this version of the killer does have the date included.
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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 10/5/2007 at 16:08


I wonder if the differences in the postmarks could just be caused by wear. The postmark on Thomas' cover is worn, the letters thicker.

Roberto's last cover actually has four types of postmarks, all being used in Warsaw at the same time. There are the two killer types, a red circular postmark, and what I think may be a black oval railway postmark. Remarkable.

I don't think it matters whether the registration label is placed on the cover before or after the postmark.

In this case, it may be so because the postal worker didn't want the killer postmark to hide the registration number. There was very little room on the cover.

Here's another explanation. Could it be that the cover was treated as an ordinary letter because the postage on the back was not noticed. Later on the additional postage was discovered, cancelled with the second type of killer, and the registration label added.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 10/5/2007 at 16:54


Oh my! Could the water source in Brooklyn need inspecting?:o

At some point in time I read that a 'killer' postmark was one in which the pins of the device actually penetrated the stamp to make sure the ink got on/into/through the stamps, but cannot remember where I read it. I do not think these Warsaw devices penetrated the stamp.

What are the four types of postmarks in the cover? The registration label from the Central Section is on top of the stamps and applied 'killer' cancel. The 'killer' on the back is not the same as that on the front. The 'rail?' mark is under the stamps on the front. The 'killer' and the ekspeditsiya on the front (in red) are all from the 1st ekspeditsiya, I think.:)
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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 10/5/2007 at 17:55


From "Definitions and Terms Used in Stamp Collecting:

http://esperstamps.org/terms3.htm

Killer Cancellation: A cancellation which is very heavy and covers most of the stamp effectively obliterating the design. (Note: Some Killers are highly collectable as "Fancy Cancels").

Those are the four types of postmarks as you stated.

The oval railway is on top of the stamps but very lightly struck on the stamps. I can see some of the postmark that makes me feel it is oval.

"Say anything that you like about me except that I drink water." -- W. C. Fields
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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 10/5/2007 at 19:06


Here's a Warsaw oval railway postmark on eBay for comparison:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s240/geotone/eBay85/1332....
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Gary
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[*] posted on 10/6/2007 at 17:16


Bottled water with various flavors has been ordered!:hoho:hoho

Slight change of topic... Seems the Warsaw marks (not pre-adhesives but say post 1870 or so) have not been given their due respect relative to studies, at least published studies. If I am wrong, please send me to the correct source. If I am correct, should we not attempt to list what is known and publish it? Just a thought.:!!
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ameis33
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[*] posted on 11/17/2007 at 17:03
Last addition


Latest addition, and perhaps the last one. I don't know about other different shapes of this postmark. Similar to the one posted by Thomas (PS! That auction reached quite high prices...), but perhaps more clean. If you count the number of straight line at the top/bottom, we have similar postmarks with three, four, five lines. But it's doesn't seem the same postmark, just three different devices...

Does anyone of you have some hint how to extract the shape of a postmark from a picture?



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ameis33
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[*] posted on 1/16/2008 at 17:42
Nice destination


Sorry for the delay, but Happy New Year to everybody.
Again a small addition, just to take the topic live, which perhaps won't add a lot, but with a nice destination, Siracuse in the US.
Again a couple of postmarks from two separate ekspedition offices, the 1st and the IV... like one of the firsts postcards.
Used in 1900, again like the previous one.
But a question. If there is a postmark of the 1st and the 4th ekspedition offices, what about the 2nd and the 3rd?



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ameis33
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[*] posted on 1/23/2008 at 13:57
IV Kont


Here a clear example of the last type of postmark Prigara referred to...



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