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Author: Subject: A separate forum for post 1991 material?
kiompie
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[*] posted on 6/25/2007 at 11:14
A separate forum for post 1991 material?


Just a question. Would it be possible to create a separate forum for post 1991 material (flyspecking, philately, postal history).

It would be great to pool postings on "modern rubbish". Like this one:

I purchased a neat small company archive (almost all covers with content!) some years ago which is 100% genuine and I would love to pool this information. One example is the following cover. I do have Russian examples also, but this Ukrainian one is pretty interesting. Franking consists of a handwritten notice of the amount due which was subsequently cancelled! No stamps or special markings involved. The last image is that of a second cover from the same period.

The cover, sent by airmail from Kharkov, Ukraine to Germany:



Handwritten and cancelled franking (dated October 15th 1992):



The letter inside, the content of which is very typical for the 100 or so covers in my possession that were sent to this German agency/company:



And, finally, a second example of a handwritten franking, dated October 17th 1992:



If anyone is interested I could do a post/article on this archive material. A lot of work, but I am willing to do it if there is an interest. This is postal and this is history too ;)




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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 6/25/2007 at 14:17


I have seen covers with the post office TP (taxe percu) handstamp filled in with the amount and used to indicate postage paid during the transition period.

The first cover is similar in that there is a handwritten TP and the amount.
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kiompie
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[*] posted on 6/25/2007 at 14:27


Yeah, I have a few of those myself. I am currently busy arranging covers in a folder to see how many different types of handstamps there are (at least in my collection) and to sort out the rates. One thing I have noticed is that on some covers there is a signature on the TP handstamp, of a postal worker I assume, and on others there isn't.

A question. Do you have any idea what the handstamp AR stands for?




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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 6/25/2007 at 14:44


Is that on one of the covers?

It could be “avis de reception”

A UPU convention equivalent to “advice of reception” or “return receipt requested” in English.

Some countries issued AR stamps.
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kiompie
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[*] posted on 6/25/2007 at 14:49


Great. Thanks, jlechtanski. It is indeed on a (registered) cover, "AR" within a square. I really have some catching up to do knowledge-wise :-)



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Gary
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[*] posted on 6/25/2007 at 17:01


Is the post in Russia doing the same thing as the post in Ukraine during this time?
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kiompie
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[*] posted on 6/25/2007 at 18:20


Good question. I have only seen a few examples from Russia proper where shortage of stamps was a problem. Most of the time I find value adjustable hand or meter marks. But then again, my collection is really not that extensive.

I'll show you one cute example that I have. The following cover was sent from Kaluga to Moscow on November 01st 1993. It bears a marking stating that postage was paid (if I am not mistaken) at the post office. The going rate at the time was 15 rubles for domestic letters. On the back is the Moscow arrival cancel dated November 5th.





I have TP examples from Brest, Belorussia and Alma Alta (Kazachstan), but the large majority are from Ukraine. And then there is this cover, from Dzerzhinsk, where 3 kopeke Soviet stamps were upgraded to 3 ruble stamps to reach the required rate, on November 10th 1992, of 45 rubles. The first 3 kopeke stamp on the left bears a signature. This cover is part of the archive I first mentioned. I also note that the first three stamps were cancelled differently and later than the others, which is still a bit of a mystery to me. I can think of only one explanation: a tariff change in between the two dates from 15 (since July10th the official rate) to 45 rubles (normally from December 12th to February 15th). But why was the letter not sent right away then? The initial row of five upgraded 3 kopeke stamps should still have been the right rate for a letter sent to Germany.






The first three stamps were cancelled on November 14th, the others on the 10th? The oblast is the same, but I cannot read the PO name on the first cancel.





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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 6/26/2007 at 10:24


Just a wild guess.

The letter was returned to the sender for additional postage. But, no markings to indicate the deficiency would seem strange.
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[*] posted on 6/26/2007 at 11:01


Interesting theory, maybe that is why all the 3 kopeke stamps have a handwritten ballpoint mark on them. I need to find a way to identify the first and larger cancel.



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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 6/26/2007 at 14:18


Are the markings on the kopeck stamps an indication that they are upgraded to ruble values? On what date did kopeck stamps become equivalent to ruble stamps? That would good to know for researching rates.

Assuming that the letter was returned because the rate changed from 15R to 45R, the fact that the 3k stamp on the left also has the ballpoint pen marking would indicate that the stamp came from the same post office. So I am thinking that the postmark is just a different type of postmark from the same post office.
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[*] posted on 6/26/2007 at 17:13


Can we relate the Ukrainian activity with the Russian activity during this period of time? Guess I thought they had different postal authorities? Has the UPNS published anything on this to date? They my be able to help here.
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[*] posted on 6/26/2007 at 18:18


jlechtanski: As for the markings, I have no idea what they really mean. I am just guessing.

Gary: Thanks for the pointers. I'll do some research on this and I shall contact the UPNS.




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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 6/26/2007 at 18:39


They certainly did have different postal authorities.

I would say the activity in Russia during this period was caused by shortages of stamps, serious inflation, and revaluation of the ruble. The use of old Soviet stamps or whatever could be improvised by the postal workers had to make due until the new stamps could be printed and distributed. Other former Soviet Republics faced similar problems.

Ukraine also had shortages of stamps and serious inflation. But it also needed to establish its own identity. Soviet Russian stamps were used until November, 1993. Ukrainian stamps were issued but constatntly were revalued because of inflation. They used overprinted Soviet Russian stamps, cash register receipts, hand stamped imprints, TP (taxe percu) impressions, etc. produced locally.
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kiompie
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[*] posted on 6/26/2007 at 21:08


So, basically, they faced the same problems to a more or lesser degree, apart from the identity issue (although I have seen stamps with ROCCIA overprints too, possibly bogus). What strikes me is that the evolution of postal rates seems to be similar in this transition period. I'll check this in more detail, but so far I have been able to check Ukraine rates with my tariff tables for the Russian Federation (up until late 1993). The only difference being the dates on which a new tariff came into being.

Another interesting issue to explore: the late use of Soviet era cancels on Ukraine stamps/provisionals. I have one dated 30.08.94! Anyway, I'll have a more detailed look into this.




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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 6/26/2007 at 21:36


...and to state the obvious, the late use of Soviet-style postmarks in Russia itself in the post-Soviet era as illustrated by the above examples.

I also have Soviet-style postmarks on mail from independent Moldova, Belarus, Kirghizstan, Turkmenistan, etc.
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Leroux
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[*] posted on 6/28/2007 at 09:59


1 Hr early - I was asking the same " Question " as title by you :)
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1657
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[*] posted on 6/28/2007 at 17:35


I would say that if more post-1991 material were posted, a separate forum would be a good idea.
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Leroux
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[*] posted on 6/29/2007 at 11:23


I taugh there were some around - A while ago - May have to check again - Re-assemble all previous posting related - And see if any - Could be updated :)
Scanning some of mine is a real pain - Scanner ain`t that good - Althrough as information gors - It may be just as good - Will see if I can get something going in a little while.
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Fergana
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[*] posted on 6/30/2007 at 17:21
post-1991


In the context of post-1991 collecting, what comprises "Russia and area"?
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Leroux
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[*] posted on 6/30/2007 at 19:54


Fews links from here ... :)
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=477
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=518
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=827
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=833
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=957
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=825
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1022
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1389
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1656
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Leroux
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[*] posted on 6/30/2007 at 19:56


Quote:
Originally posted by Fergana
In the context of post-1991 collecting, what comprises "Russia and area"?


Perhaps If I understand - The question - FSU or Former USSR ... OI guess.Althrough some may want to exclude the " Non CIS Members " ... :)

Better ask a " Long Standing Philatelist for this advise on the subject (Perhaps) ... :P
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[*] posted on 6/30/2007 at 22:17


Quote:
Originally posted by Fergana
In the context of post-1991 collecting, what comprises "Russia and area"?


I would say Russia and area post 1991, would exclude all new independent states recognized by UPU and any regions assigned to the independent states that produce stamps but do not have legal standing under UPU. Unlike the period of civil war independent states are recognized by the Russian Federation and therefore no “period” conflict exist. IMHO
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kiompie
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[*] posted on 7/1/2007 at 11:14


For me Russia & Area includes anything with a tie to the former Soviet Union, be it Soviet postmarks, mixed frankings, etc. A Ukraine cover with a Ukraine stamp and a Ukraine postmark would be excluded, for instance. The transition period, or the break-up of the SU, is IMHO postal history connected to the former SU.



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Leroux
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[*] posted on 7/1/2007 at 16:21


Yep ain`t going to be easy to define ... :)
I was going to say - Former USSR during the preiod of 1992 - 1994 or 1991 - 1995 (Plus variations - Like Oditties) ... :)
A dex for all those " Fantasies " ... Etc :)
Just for those fews years - The fields of studies are " Huge and Various " ... :)
Perhaps;In few many years - It will be more define and agreed ... Upon one way to do it - Rather than the many more various possibilities of today :)
Anyhow - I was thinking of doing a forum - My way ... Hence anyone wanting to agreed with me Would be " Welcome " the others would be welcome to - Althrough we all have to leave together (My House) still hopping for the more " Mature " philatelist would be so kind as to showing us the way ... :)
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Leroux
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[*] posted on 7/1/2007 at 16:33


Let do this one ... :)
* Unusual perhaps ... Shortage of postage (looklike) ... Any idea (Click on Thumb to enlarge - Store Outside this server)
* Novosibirk 08 December 1994
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