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Author: Subject: An imaginative fake
igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 7/12/2007 at 23:00


This is really great. I am ready to ignore postal rate because it could be re-evaluated at a post office but how could somebody transfer rubles if Estonia used its own currency (penni and mark) at that time. Even if we accept crasy idea that post office clark accepted rubles what could you buy for 15 rubles in 1920? Hole of bagle?
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jlechtanski
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[*] posted on 7/12/2007 at 23:10


Isn't rub. on the back of the card overwritten with the word mark. to make 15 marks?
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 7/12/2007 at 23:34


So we have currency exchange: 15 rubles = 15 marks. What could you buy buy for 15 marks in Estonia in 1920?
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Alep
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[*] posted on 7/13/2007 at 12:55


I happened never run into this problem, but there seems to be a few strange things. The facts are:
1. The money transfer rates of Estonia (1918-1940) were never published. Was there such service as money transfer in 1920 at all?
2. Such form could be used as blank, but there are no postage stamps of Estonia obligatory for use.
3. Such canceller Tallinn D is not listed in the comprehensive Hurt & Ojaste Estonia catalogue/handbook and described nowhere as far as I know, but there existed similar cancellers B and C. This does not mean, however, that this postmark is necessarily false.
4. The rate 1 marka = 1 rouble was actually adopted in 1919 where the markas/pennies were introduced.
5. The inflation in 1920 was rather speedy. For example, the postal rates of 1 July 1920 and 10 April 1921 differ 2.5 to 4 rates. So, the rate for inland letters rose from 2 to 5 marka, for foreign letters from 2.5 to 10 markas. Thus, 15 markas in November 1920 were not too negligible sum.
6. As to the entire itself, it looks highly suspicious, most probably - fake. However, one should not be categorical, we cannot exclude the contrary, since the problem with money transfer in the early years of Estonian Republic is not studied at all.
A challenge!
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 7/13/2007 at 15:38


Alexander,

Can you find some prices in November 1920? For example how much was milk, potatoe, bread, etc. This is very interesting to know what we can buy for 15 marks. If we could buy just a half loaf of bread, why somebody transfered such kind of money. Of course it means nothing. For example I (and definitely thousands of shereholders) have received check for 1 cent (postage was 22 cents) because company made mistake calculated my dividents.
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Alep
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[*] posted on 7/14/2007 at 09:08


A right question. If I succeed to find the appropriate data, I shall answer it. Presently, I could find only some information concerning the summer 1919 when the war against the Russian Red Army and German Landswehr was in full swing. So, one gave 100 markas for a pood (16 kg) of grain and 20 markas for a pood of salt. For comparison, the corresponding figures in Soviet Russia where an acute hunger reigned were 600 and 70 roubles, while the official exchange rate was then 1 rouble = 1.25 Estonian markas. Of course, the prices could change by November 1920 but not too drastically, I believe.
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Dr. Ray Ceresa
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[*] posted on 7/14/2007 at 10:52


Would not genuine Estonian cancellations of 1920 have periods between day.month. year? Absence of periods on a postmark is sometimes an indication of a fake single date cancellor.
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Alep
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[*] posted on 7/14/2007 at 12:57


No, there are mostly no periods on the undoubtedly genuine pre WW2 cancellers of Estonia. This one also looks genuine, although not reported and not listed up to now.
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Alep
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[*] posted on 7/15/2007 at 02:38


It looks as the early Estonian cancellers introduced in 1918-19 were manufactured of some soft material that was rapidly worn. For example, the Tallinn cancellers with the month in ciphres were not used after 1920 having been replaced by new ones with the month in Roman figures.
I remembered now also the curious fact that the postal rates of the Northwest Army were copied from the Estonian rates taking 1 r/k = 1 marka/penni. The NWA money transfer rate is known to be 25 k up to sums of 25 r (by July 1919 though). Thus, could not be this money card sold for 25 penni at the post office thus covering the tariff?
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 7/15/2007 at 08:25


I still cannot understand two more thing.

Tallinn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tallinna replaced the previously used official German name Reval (Russian : Ревель ) in 1918, when Estonia became independent. In the early 1920s the official spelling of the city name was changed from Tallinna to Tallinn, making the new name notable since Estonian-language place names generally end with a vowel (denoting genitive case).

Why sender still call it Revel transerring money from Tallinn to Tallinn?

If new cancellers with Tallinn instead Tallinna were really in use in November 1920? May be somebody has covers of this period.
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 7/15/2007 at 08:40


One more thing.

On back side the word "rub." was overwritten with the word "mark" in Russian although it has to be "marok":

The word "mark" does not exist in Russian language.

1 marka, 2 marki, 15 marok, etc
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Lacplesis
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[*] posted on 7/15/2007 at 08:48


Quote:
Originally posted by igorfmyask
One more thing.

On back side the word "rub." was overwritten with the word "mark" in Russian although it has to be "marok":

The word "mark" does not exist in Russian language.

1 marka, 2 marki, 15 marok, etc


Mark is the german spelling. Maybe a nativ German speaker?
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 7/15/2007 at 10:38


Why was it written in Russian?
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Alep
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[*] posted on 7/15/2007 at 13:08


Tallinna is Genitive from Tallinn; thus, there could never be postmarks with "Tallinna". The money transfer was effected (if really!) by a Russian, and they were accustomed to the former designation of the town - Revel.
The clerk who (allegedly) wrote 'mark.' was probably an Estonian (the signature!). This word should be written in Estonian as 'marka' if in combination with figures (Partitive). In this case, there is a point after 'mark' instead of "a", i.e. written in Cyrilic letters and abbreviated. Of course, it would be correct "15 marok" if in Russian.
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igorfmyask
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[*] posted on 7/15/2007 at 16:33


One more concern. If the clark was Estonian (signature) why did he write "mark" in Russian?
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Alep
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[*] posted on 7/16/2007 at 01:47


How to answer these questions? Almost every Estonian spoke and wrote Russian at that time. Why "Estonia"? This knew only the sender (or forger).
I understand, of course, that the arguments for the genuineness of this thing are rather weak. However, the contrary is also under question.
Please have in mind also that this part of the order remained in postal archives, while the recepient was sent the coupon.
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