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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/4/2007 at 08:45
Warsaw estafet postmark


Can anybody add information about this postmark?

EhKSP. PR. PROST. KOR. EhSTAFET, 13 February 1873

Thanks



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ameis33
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[*] posted on 8/4/2007 at 10:11


At the moment i can just say it is 1873
Let me look for...
Can you show the front of the cover?
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/4/2007 at 11:07


Here is the front of the cover.



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ameis33
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[*] posted on 8/4/2007 at 16:30


About this specific postmark i've not found any special information.
It is a postal stationary sent from Warsaw to Siedlce, posted the 12 february 1873, dispatched the 13 february and arrived in Siedlce the same day.
You can notice in Warsaw a double ring postmark has been used, in Siedlce just a single ring postmark. Double ring postmarks were in effect in use just in the main towns (St. Petersbourg, Moscow, Warsaw, more?).
The same postmark has been used to cancel the franking (i was saying, the stamps...) and on the back side as date stamp. I notice this fact because in the near past the beautiful four rings cancels were in use to cancel stamps (!)...
Instead of marking offices with a serial number, the postmark reflect the name of the dispatch office itself.
"EhKSP. PR. PROST. KOR. EhSTAFET"
Taking pieces from left and from right, i guess (but it's just my guess)
"Expeditsiya priema prostoy korrespondentsii exstafet"
I leave to the russian speaking members to correct the lexicon and to tell me what does it stand for (if of course my guess could stand for something)
I can't say nothing more...
PS! As in another topic we were discussing about the use of polish or russian language, all the postmarks on this letters are in russian...
My consideration is not based on documents, but you can notice this passage together with the disappear of the old four rings polish postmarks in the first years of 70's...
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David Jay
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[*] posted on 8/10/2007 at 12:19


I'm copying here an exchange from WSRP some time back:

Ivo:

An "Estafet" postmark?

(image)

Take a look. The postmark is mostly bleah but the one word that is clearly legible is "Estafet"...

Any theories?


12.04.04 20:57 added by Anatoly Kiryushkin

This is a Warsaw town post item ( 1872 correct 3k letter rate ). Formally "Estafeta" means "courier delivery" but I've never seen this inscription on postmarks. Probably it's a local Warsaw slang for a common town post delivery (at least sounds greater than just "gorodskaya pochta" :)))).



29.04.04 7:56 added by David Jay

With this item in hand, I can say that it is disappointing that there
is no clear, complete cancel. Piecing together three incomplete cancels,
it says "Varshava" at top, then small fleurons right and left, then
"Ekspeditsia Gor. Estafet". However, there seems to be a symbol between each of the three words on the lower part of the cancel -- maybe "i".

End of WSRP exchange

Ignore the last bit, since I was unable to decipher the cancel correctly based
on the item I have. Two of the three cancels looked rather like the one
on the indicium that Gary is showing -- very blurry. At least now we have a clean cancel, even if its significance remains in doubt.

Analtoly's explanation, that it is associated with city post delivery, seems dubious. This letter went from Warsaw TO Siedletz (I think, at least not to Warsaw). Maybe rather City Post despatch? There does not seem to be any connection with rapid or special delivery on either letter, so a mundane function is indicated.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/10/2007 at 12:46


I have what the 1909 Postal Regulations say about ehstafet, but it is in Russian.

I also have what the Moscow Post Director says about it in his Reference Book of Postal Rules/Regulations for the convenience of correspondents in Moscow, 1897. However, it is also in Russian.

Would someone like to translate these for us?
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Lacplesis
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[*] posted on 8/11/2007 at 06:57


I have what the 1713, 1843, 1852, 1863, 1874 and 1880 Postal Regulations say about ehstafet, but it is in German.

You could get yourself a copy "Postgeschichte Kaiserreich Russland Vol.1" by Hans Kupec and check it out directly...
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/11/2007 at 07:10


Do you by chance have these in electronic format?
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Lacplesis
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[*] posted on 8/11/2007 at 09:12


Ask Mr. Kupec if it is ok for him, if I copy some pages from his book for you...

Unfortunatly he gives no email adress in his book, the only thing I could offer is his ebay name: hanskupec
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/11/2007 at 09:19


His book and it is a good one. You mentioned other sources that were not from Hans. Are any of those in electronic format?
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Lacplesis
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[*] posted on 8/11/2007 at 09:25


Quote:
Originally posted by Gary You mentioned other sources that were not from Hans. Are any of those in electronic format?


Did I? Kupec is citing from all the postal regualtions I mentioned in his chapter about ehstafet post.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/11/2007 at 10:48


Quote:
Originally posted by Lacplesis
I have what the 1713, 1843, 1852, 1863, 1874 and 1880 Postal Regulations say about ehstafet, but it is in German.

You could get yourself a copy "Postgeschichte Kaiserreich Russland Vol.1" by Hans Kupec and check it out directly...


Sorry, I misunderstood when you said I have. Now it is clear. Thanks.:(
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/12/2007 at 07:20
Moscow 1897 estafet regulations


Here is a PDF of the regulations for the estafet post in Moscow circa 1897. It is in Russian.



Attachment: Estafet1.pdf (230kB)
This file has been downloaded 316 times

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ameis33
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[*] posted on 8/23/2007 at 14:08


This service was introduced in the earlier periods, when letters and postage in general was transported normally by walk (funny, but it is), with horses or with postal coaches. Beside these "ordinary" posts, some "extraordinary" posts were also available: extrapost and estafette.

Should be not difficult to understand how estafette worked. The service was arranged immediately after the request, and post transported from one station to the next one (depending on the available trakts) with a horse. Than from here (changing the horse) to the next, etc. up to the final destination. The service had specific rates, and had to be paid from the sender immediately before the shipment took place. I have the full rates table for the Kingdom of Poland before 1851, and the ratio between estafette and normal shipment for a simple letter as far as i can understand was nearly 1:60. There wasn't a flat rate for this service, but the overall rate was the sum of several voices. I didn't go deep anyway.

The service was intended for letters and/or parcels. When the weight was over 3 funt, instead of horses, postal coaches (carried by a single horse) were used.

With the introduction of railroads, estafette began loosing its importance, but still was kept till late. I don't have information for Russia, but in Germany, it lasted until 1892.

I have found information about these "extraordinary" posts in some books i have, but also on the german wikipedia there is a nice description. PS! I used the german word (estafette) because i still haven't understood the related english word.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estafette
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/23/2007 at 17:03


Quote:
Originally posted by Tyukov
Special handwritten marks: "With one horse estafet"


I cannot see this. Maybe my eyes are getting old. Please provide a larger scan of the words for "With one horse estafet"

Thanks
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David Jay
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[*] posted on 8/23/2007 at 21:03


The discussion of the rare letters that did travel by the "real" estafet is interesting, but does not get us any closer to the solution to the particular
mystery that started this thread. What does this mark mean on very ordinary letters (with no extraordinary charges) from Warsaw?? The two items in question were sent in 1872 and 1873. 1872 was the year that Ekspeditsia marks that indicated function (as opposed to simply having a number) were introduced in St Petersburg. So perhaps indeed they were just testing various terminologies. There is certainly no indication that Gary's letter went anywhere in a hurry -- there are "Estafet" markings from both 12 and 13 February!
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[*] posted on 8/24/2007 at 14:29


What would be a good translation of the postmark?

Ekspeditsiya for Receiving Ordinary Relay Mail?

Dobin mentions that in 1830 the St. Petersburg PO had an expeditsiya for "heavy posts and relays" (pocht i estafet) including a section (otdeleni) for "dispatching relays and summer daily mail to Kronshtadt and Tsarkoe Selo."

"Later the Office for heavy posts and relays accepted the ordinary correspondence to the suburbs of St. Petersburg ... and handed out letters received from there."

Could the letter in question be coming from the suburbs of Warsaw and being postmarked with the receiving postmark of the Warsaw Ekspeditsiya for Receiving Ordinary Relay Mail?
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/24/2007 at 17:49


Maybe a translation of the Moscow handbook on estafet would provide insight? Just a guess.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 10/30/2007 at 16:48
Another estafet from 1873


From Warsaw to Ruda Gruzovskaya, 18 March 1873



estafet-#2-front.jpg - 93kB
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David Jay
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[*] posted on 11/10/2007 at 17:27


Very nice! -- finally a really clear mark.
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howard
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[*] posted on 11/20/2007 at 16:59


According to the law that reorganized the post in Poland (effective 1 Jan. 1871 and ratified by the Tsar on Dec. 15, 1870), one of several ekspeditsias within the Warsaw post office was for the acceptance and dispatch of ordinary mail and estafet mail, and for the sale of stamps and postal stationery. Another ekspeditsia accepted and dispatched money letters and registered letters, another accepted and dispatched parcels, another handled foreign mail.
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[*] posted on 12/6/2009 at 07:14


In the Kingdom of Poland there were three types of extra-mail - extraordinary, courier mail and "sztafeta = shtapheta", estafette (since 1764). Till 1851 this last one was used only for letters, money and parcels transporting to the nearest post station/office with a horse or carriage. Each station had such a duty. In KP distinguish the private and government estafettes. Since 1844 speed horse was set on 12 wiorst/h (russian wiorsta=1067m).
And also divided the estafettes into light and heavy - weight to 3 pounds and to several pounds.
Extract from the postal provisions - Calender - Łodzianin 1893 - "Estafette is the mail with correspondence which is intentionally sent at the reguest of the sender. Shipments shall be accepted at any time of day or night. Packets, parcels to weight 3 pounds are shipped by one horse with charge 90 kopeck and 6 kopeck for each wiorsta~1km.
But first letter charge - 10 kopeck, postcard - 5 kopeck. So ?
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[*] posted on 12/6/2009 at 08:42


Warsaw- Siedlce - tract nr 29 (Warsaw-Brest Lit.) distance 14 3/4 wiorsta x 6Kopeck=88,5Kopeck and 10 kopeck for one horse and normal postage 10 Kopeck. Total charge should reach 1 rb 8,5 Kopeck.
Request - this postmark did not mean to accept the shipment relay, was imprinted accidentally, or mistakenly, or as substitution. Probably
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David Jay
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[*] posted on 12/6/2009 at 19:52


Nice to see this thread resurrected.
We have seen enough examples of the Warsaw Estafet on very ordinary items by now (they come up on ebay every now and again) to conclude that the 1870s Warsaw mark had nothing to do with an expensive express or relay post. Could it be applied once by accident? Of course! But there are too many examples for that. And Gary's example above with the same mark applied on two successive days -- the later was not going anywhere in a hurry by relay, and it is not at all likely that the same incorrect mark would be applied two days in a row, by accident.
I think the question of the meaning of the mark has to do with the details of the Warsaw postal system partially explained above, but we haven't gotten to the bottom of the matter.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 12/7/2009 at 05:25


Is is not possible that the estafet marks are properly applied by the office that handled this type of correspondence in Warsaw? I do not remember reading anywhere yet (notice the YET) that the sender was not required to pay the cost of the actual letter. The estafet charges would be added on top of the postal cost just to mail the item. I also cannot find out if the estafet costs were to be paid in cash and a receipt from the control chambers was issued. Perhaps a copy sent with the item. Did the sender have to apply postage stamps to indicate the cost had been paid? Perhaps not. I have official documents that explain the estafet system in Russia and Poland from1837 and 1867. They are too large to post here, but can be sent via email if anybody wants a copy. Perhaps the same basic rules were still in effect in the 1870s?
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