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Author: Subject: Irkutsk 1st P-T Office
Gary
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[*] posted on 6/27/2008 at 12:53
Irkutsk 1st P-T Office


A pair on 1-ruble stamps with a very nice Irkutsk town post mark.

Irkutsk pervoe P.-T. Otd(elenie) - (1st office)
6 July 1917
Serial letter B

According to Robinson, these were Town Post-Telegraf offices and we should also be able to find a 2nd office mark (vtoroe). Can someone show this 2nd office mark?

Also shown is a Photoshop manipulation of the mark to make it stand out a bit more.



irkutsk-1-4-web.jpg - 143kB
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Gary
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[*] posted on 6/27/2008 at 12:53
enhanced version for clarity of mark proper






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Alep
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[*] posted on 6/28/2008 at 01:26


Otdelenie means a branch or suboffice of the city post/telegraph office. There could be a single branch and not necessarily a second one.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 6/28/2008 at 04:18


According to Dobin, we can see the word otdelenie with a couple of meanings and different marks.

- gorodskoe pochtovoe otdelenie - town post sub-office
- otdelenie gorodskoi pochty - sub-office of the town post

Also noted on postmarks is use of the word kontora. In at least SPb and Moscow we see the word otdel used for the "internal" post of the town and otdelenie used as the "state post sub-office (obshchegosudarstvennoe)" of the Main Post Office. For Warsaw, I suspect the kontora, which is indicated in postmarks associated with the dispatch offices, is also a state postal office. The use of otdelenie in Warsaw may mean internal sub-office.
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Alep
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[*] posted on 6/28/2008 at 07:02


The Dobin's definitions apply to St.Petersburg and, probably, Moscow. The first of them - gorodskoe pochtovoe otdelenie applies to all other Russian towns (inc. Irkutsk) which had post/telegraph suboffices but no town post as such. Warsaw, Riga and some other towns had town posts. However, as far as I know, there were no town post sub-offices, at least, in Riga: it was not large enough in comparison with St.Petersburg.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 6/28/2008 at 07:13


Quote:
Originally posted by Alep
Otdelenie means a branch or suboffice of the city post/telegraph office. There could be a single branch and not necessarily a second one.


The Riga Kontora had according to the 1916 Postal List some sort of division.

Rizhskaya p. k. imeet 7 podvedomstvennykh ei gorodskikh p. t. o.

Jakimovs and Marcilger list postmarks for 8 offices as GP kontora and GPT kontora. Additionally, they lists marks for the gorodskaya pochta, and 1-e gorodskoe otdelenie.

If otdelenie means as Alep states, then perhaps it is in error. If we are referring to the otdelenie gorodskoi pochty or the otdel from SPb and Moscow, that is another story? Maybe we should just use the transliterated words and not attempt to translate them?

If I may suggest, we should move this topic on everything except the Irkutsk mark to a different thread.


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Alep
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[*] posted on 6/28/2008 at 12:36


Yes, Riga (Central) Post/Telegraph Office had by 1917 8 sub-divisions subordinated to it: 2 P.T.Os (gorodskaya pochtovo-telegrafnaya kontora) + 6 P.T.subOs (gorodskoe pochtovo-telegrafnoe otdeleniye rather than otdeleniye gorodskoi pochty which is another story). Town post (gorodskaya pochta) was a self-dependent institution different from State post. In other words, otdelenie gorodskoi pochty was a branch of the town post (gorodskaya pochta), while gorodskoe pochtovoe otdelenie was a branch subordinated to the (central) town/city post/telegraph office of the State post.
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[*] posted on 6/30/2008 at 16:50


I agree with Alep. There were only two town posts in Russia independend from the state post - in St.-Petersburg and Moscow. In Irkutsk it was a sub-office of the state post office (kontora). I attach postcard with arrival postmark of another (second) sub-office of the Irkutsk post office. It is interesting that along with the number it has the name "Znamensko-Remeslennoe"
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[*] posted on 7/3/2008 at 13:08


What is "Znamensko-Remeslennoe"?

The name of a town? --a street? --the name of the office?
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Alep
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[*] posted on 7/4/2008 at 02:08


A suburb of Irkutsk
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Gary
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[*] posted on 7/4/2008 at 06:48


Alep. Is it not possible that this is the name, at least the Remeslennoe, for a function or section/district of the town proper such as the birzha, etc.? If it was a suburb, that is OK. Where can I find this information? To me a suburb is a prigorod. Thanks a million.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Реме...






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Gary
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[*] posted on 7/4/2008 at 08:55
And here is Kazan'






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Alep
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[*] posted on 7/5/2008 at 06:54


I do not known it exactly. Maybe, it was a suburb (sloboda) inhabited by artisants or craftsmen (remeslennoe = handicraft), while Znamensko(e) was its proper name). I have once read about the Irkutsk suburb Znamenskoe but do not remember now the details.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 7/5/2008 at 16:57


We know or we do not know. If it is a guess, then we need to say that. If asked to show or tell our sources, we should be glad to show or tell our sources.;)

Irkutsk Znamenskoe predmest'e
http://www.baikal.ru/icards/streets/bzn_d.htm
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[*] posted on 7/6/2008 at 04:55


Well, predmest'e = suburb in Russian. As to Remeslennoe inhabited by craftsmen, it is a guess.
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