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Author: Subject: Number 2 used abroad on ebay?????
David Jay
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[*] posted on 8/30/2009 at 14:53
Number 2 used abroad on ebay?????


ebay lot 270449584516

At least one other posting by this author seemed suspicious.
This purports to be a 10k #2 sent on a letter in 1858(!) to Bordeaux. The earliest known franked foreign mail is from late 1864, as the cash payment was the rule before that time. There have been persistent discussions of letters sent in 1858, franked with #1, paying postage to the border. This would, then, purport to be the same, with a #2. This one comes with an alleged certificate. If the translation of the certificate wording is correct, this would have to be a forgery -- any knowledgeable expert would certainly comment on the usage. I'm guessing that the stamp and cancel have been added, and the cert if a fraud or forgery.

Thoughts?


http://cgi.ebay.com/1858-RUSSIA-STAMP-2-ON-THE-ENVELOPE-TRAN...
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/30/2009 at 16:38


Interesting from another aspect. The Russians are forbidden from selling state treasures outside Russia. So how can this from Moscow take place? Recently, there have been a lot of items indicting they are from Moscow on eBay. Most of then like Moneybookers. How easy is it to get your money back?
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David Jay
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[*] posted on 8/30/2009 at 20:09


I was wondering about that, too. Is it true that you can't receive money in Russia via Paypal?
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/31/2009 at 08:32
More pictures


The scans provided here are from the seller of this item. They are not my personal property and are put here solely to support the ongoing discussion about this item.

Attachment: phpGQmmUz (39kB)
This file has been downloaded 357 times

Attachment: phpfwepXI (364kB)
This file has been downloaded 342 times

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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/31/2009 at 08:34
more pictures


The last three files I have.

Attachment: phpXbaZXH (130kB)
This file has been downloaded 345 times

Attachment: phpu71GjW (189kB)
This file has been downloaded 361 times

Attachment: phpqE1hTa (375kB)
This file has been downloaded 352 times

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David Jay
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[*] posted on 8/31/2009 at 10:57


Gary -
I got a scan from the seller also. Looks like this is the left-overs from some auction house -- maybe returned as a fake.
It is impossible to be sure about the dot numeral without seeing it "in person". However, none of the dots show the characteristic "hollowing" that one sees with dot numerals. The ink should be strongest around the outside of the dots, while it is strongest in the centers here. So I think the stamp was added and tied with a fake cancel.

Two other questions:
1) is Mr. Pritula a known expert, and does this look like his certificate?
2) What does the accounting mark tell us?
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David Jay
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[*] posted on 8/31/2009 at 11:01


Oh, duh. What would a Berdyansk cancel be doing on a letter from Odessa. That makes no sense as a routing at all.
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[*] posted on 8/31/2009 at 12:46


Quote: Originally posted by David Jay  

Two other questions:
1) is Mr. Pritula a known expert, and does this look like his certificate?
2) What does the accounting mark tell us?

He is listed on this site: http://www.filatelia.fi/experts/namesm.html
It doesn't have a copy of his mark, however.
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Gary
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[*] posted on 8/31/2009 at 15:04


Interesting to note that there is no date on the certificate. Mr. Pritula is listed as an AIEP expert for the period 1992-1999 only. Not sure where their words 'frequently on forged' means. It appears that he died in 2001. That would explain why he is not on the current AIEP list.
http://www.aiep-experts.net/cms/

However, he is listed in multiple places on the Internet.

On the Ask Phil website, he is listed as:
http://www.askphil.org/b35.htm
Listed as last updated on August 12, 2003.

Vsevolod V. Pritula
3-d Frunzenskaja 14-87
Moscow, CSI-119146 Russia
Russia before 1917, Soviet Union after 1917, Air mail Russia and European countries, until 1940, Space mail

Also listed as a Russian Dealer at:
http://arthurj-w.tripod.com/i/localdlr/ru.htm

Vsevolod V. Pritula
3-d Frunzenskaja 14-87
Moscow, CSI-119146 Russia
Expertization: Russia before 1917, Soviet Union after 1917, Air mail Russia and European countries, until 1940, Space mail.
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eja1703
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[*] posted on 8/31/2009 at 16:07


The "11" mark on the front is an french accounting mark thar means 11 decimes, and as far as I know that was the rate for totally unpaid letters from Russia to France in the period July 1st 1858 to January 1st 1876. So what the 10 kopek is payment for is a good question. And of course why cancel the stamp in Berdyansk when the letter is sent from Odessa does not give any sense.
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[*] posted on 9/1/2009 at 11:49


I can only add that Mr. Pritula is presented as an expert in the airmail philately. However, as it was proved by some articles in the Russian philatelic periodicals, he had recognized as genuine a number of such faked covers. Thus, one should treat his certificates with a bit of scepsis.
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tbeberger
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[*] posted on 9/6/2009 at 07:29
I think it is a fake


I obviously added my comment to the wrong category. I wrote:

Obvious forgery of a 1858 cover to France

Hello
I think that the stamp on this item was added lateron and the postmark was forged.
Originally, the item was a porto cover where the addressee had to pay 11 decimes. In 1858, stamps were never added on mail sent abroad.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270449...
Following the webpage of G. Kock, Pritula is often found on forged material:
http://www.filatelia.fi/experts/namesm.html
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tbeberger
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[*] posted on 9/6/2009 at 07:32


Quote: Originally posted by David Jay  
Gary -
I got a scan from the seller also. Looks like this is the left-overs from some auction house -- maybe returned as a fake.
It is impossible to be sure about the dot numeral without seeing it "in person". However, none of the dots show the characteristic "hollowing" that one sees with dot numerals. The ink should be strongest around the outside of the dots, while it is strongest in the centers here. So I think the stamp was added and tied with a fake cancel.

Two other questions:
1) is Mr. Pritula a known expert, and does this look like his certificate?
2) What does the accounting mark tell us?


The auction house to which the holder of this items belongs is the Swedish house Postiljonen (http://www.postiljonen.se/) which is serious but which is not specialized in Russia.
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[*] posted on 9/6/2009 at 08:52


Quote: Originally posted by tbeberger  
The auction house to which the holder of this items belongs is the Swedish house Postiljonen (http://www.postiljonen.se/) which is serious but which is not specialized in Russia.

Do you think it would do any good to contact them with the information we have accumulated here? I'd hate to see a reputable house get had.
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