The Samovar
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: Forgeries at raritan
red1999
Major Philatelist
***




Posts: 66
Registered: 8/17/2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 6/30/2017 at 02:49
Forgeries at raritan


The following lots are fake.

the following lots are forgeries:

278, 279, 283 (reprints are forgeries), 284 (reprints are forgeries), 289, 292

Raritan got a mail and should know by now.

see also: www.stampsofarmenia.com
View user's profile View All Posts By User
red1999
Major Philatelist
***




Posts: 66
Registered: 8/17/2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7/4/2017 at 01:47


no reaction from raritan - since they are members of rossica, should they not remove the forgeries? is it ok when auction houses do advertise their memberships but do not honor the rules? is being a member of rossica still worth something?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
GregMirsky
Rossica Librarian
******




Posts: 346
Registered: 11/2/2002
Location: Palo Alto,CA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Still Optimistic...

[*] posted on 7/4/2017 at 11:01


I think it will be useful to post here example of genuine stamps for #278, 279
View user's profile View All Posts By User
IvoSteijn
Major Philatelist
***




Posts: 356
Registered: 11/2/2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: philatelic

[*] posted on 7/4/2017 at 11:07


Stefan, I'd suggest formally bringing the matter to the attention of the Rossica officers. I don't know how often they read this forum.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Jeff
Super Administrator
*********


Avatar


Posts: 749
Registered: 10/18/2002
Location: Herndon, Virginia
Member Is Offline

Mood: It's developing...

[*] posted on 7/11/2017 at 22:37


Some of us read this forum all of the time. I was hoping for a response prior to this. I'll ping the rest of the officers. Thanks, Jeff

p.s. Gee, are we missing Gary C.?
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
stamplover
Administrator
********




Posts: 99
Registered: 2/6/2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: Curious

[*] posted on 7/12/2017 at 10:50
Rossica and Raritan


1. First and foremost. "Rossica" cannot be held responsible for sales of individual items by our advertisers and cannot participate in resolution of conflicts between sellers and buyers.
2. Lots 278 and 279 have certificates by Rosselevich as indicated by Raritan. It is up to the buyer to consider his expertization valid.
3. Reprints are what they are - reprints.
4. It is notoriously difficult to expertize some postal history items (lots 289 and 292). This is why Raritan gives their buyers a full year for expertization and will pay for it if the item is not found genuine (see their conditions here http://www.raritanstamps.com/Descr/CoS.htm). I personally think that these are generous and fair conditions, comparable to the best in this business.
5. If you are not satisfied with "Rossica" policies in this respect, please file all complaints with professional organization(s) of dealers, for instance, ASDA.
Alexander Kolchinsky, Secretary
View user's profile View All Posts By User
red1999
Major Philatelist
***




Posts: 66
Registered: 8/17/2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7/12/2017 at 12:33


I am a bit disappointed with this answer. I thought it is part of a code of honor, that as a member of Rossica, you will not offer fake items, if you are aware of it. I stand corrected here it seems.

1. First and foremost. "Rossica" cannot be held responsible for sales of individual items by our advertisers and cannot participate in resolution of conflicts between sellers and buyers.

my reasoning was: raritan decorates itself with its membership of rossica. should it not honor then the statute?

2. Lots 278 and 279 have certificates by Rosselevich as indicated by Raritan. It is up to the buyer to consider his expertization valid.

they got most likely signatures, not certificates. why does raritan do not show them? those items are very rare if genuine and all armenian stuff has been massively forged. all know this. but i guess that is part of how you present yourself as a professional auction house, or do yo?
and i do not think it is up to the buyer alone. the auction house is responsible to take care and present offers with due diligence. if you follow the literature by Ashord and Ceresa and publications in the rossica journal, post rider etc. you will know that not all signatures are "good". regarding armenia there are known forgeries with names of "good" expertisers and also forged signatures.

3. Reprints are what they are - reprints.

that is wrong. if the reprints have been administrated by the postal offices, they are "legit" reprints. if made without legal authority, they are forgeries. in this case its the latter. the paris issue reprints were made unauthorized and with a different printing technique by unkown forgers.

4. It is notoriously difficult to expertize some postal history items (lots 289 and 292). This is why Raritan gives their buyers a full year for expertization and will pay for it if the item is not found genuine (see their conditions here http://www.raritanstamps.com/Descr/CoS.htm). I personally think that these are generous and fair conditions, comparable to the best in this business.

if you have seen a genuine 1k script overprint at least one time in your life, you instantly know, it is a crude forgery. but perhaps you need to be interested in this. however, if a BPP expert writes an auction house, would you ignore it?

5. If you are not satisfied with "Rossica" policies in this respect, please file all complaints with professional organization(s) of dealers, for instance, ASDA.

well are you committed to the auction house where the money is, or to the collectors? i wonder...
but you are right. ASDA would be also a good choice.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
red1999
Major Philatelist
***




Posts: 66
Registered: 8/17/2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7/12/2017 at 12:37


Quote: Originally posted by GregMirsky  
I think it will be useful to post here example of genuine stamps for #278, 279


please check here: http://stampsofarmenia.com/?p=1152

especially look for the base line of the "100r" part. the second "0" must be raised. if all are on the same level - it is fake. besides, ink and appearance are miles from the genuine overprint. if genuine, these over the counter productions would be extremely rare and worth a lot.

ps: lot 280 got a genuine 100r HH overprint together with an unframed Z HP monogram; stamps is typical Melik Pashayev printing.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
IvoSteijn
Major Philatelist
***




Posts: 356
Registered: 11/2/2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: philatelic

[*] posted on 7/12/2017 at 19:14


Quote: Originally posted by stamplover  

4. It is notoriously difficult to expertize some postal history items (lots 289 and 292). This is why Raritan gives their buyers a full year for expertization and will pay for it if the item is not found genuine (see their conditions here http://www.raritanstamps.com/Descr/CoS.htm). I personally think that these are generous and fair conditions, comparable to the best in this business.

Actually, I'd take issue with that statement, Alexander. It's been many years since I've had a serious interest in Armenia, but for the past 10-15 years the market has been flooded with primitive forgeries like these two lots. I believe Trevor Pateman wrote an article about them a few years ago, and of course Stefan Berger's website is a great source of information. These forgeries are so primitive (and all so similar in style) that they are easy to spot by anyone who has ever seen a genuine postmark from this period. Good thing that the person who was painting on the forged postmarks had such shaky hands!
Also, when the person who I believe is the only recognized expert for Armenia on the planet tells you something is forged, you can't really put the burden of proof on the buyer anymore: it's just wasting everyone's time and money. Forgeries like these were all over eBay and that was bad enough - to now see them in one of the world's foremost "Russia" auctions is really sad.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
IvoSteijn
Major Philatelist
***




Posts: 356
Registered: 11/2/2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: philatelic

[*] posted on 7/12/2017 at 19:16


Quote: Originally posted by Jeff  

p.s. Gee, are we missing Gary C.?


Nothing but good about the departed.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David Jay
Major Philatelist
***




Posts: 440
Registered: 1/24/2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7/20/2017 at 23:39
yes


I think we are missing a certain incendiary, non-complaisant element. The philatelic trade needs some shaking up.
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top

Powered by XMB 1.9.11
XMB Forum Software © 2001-2011 The XMB Group
[Queries: 17]