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Jeff Klein
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[*] posted on 12/20/2003 at 21:41
Catalog(ue)s!


Rusalka wrote the following, which seem a good start for a new thread:

Scott catalogue?

Gary this new discussion should have a new thread. There is a lot that can be said about the different catalogues.

The only reason I purchased Scott is to look up the catalogue numbers on e-bay which are mainly used by Americans who are the most common sellers. I have yet to be convinced that is good for anything else, except lining a bird cage!

Can someone in the U.S please explain to me why this U. S. publication is a catalogue and not a catalog?

Is it because it was published in Sidney Ohio and not in Sydney(in Australia)?

I'm confused!

~~~~
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Jeff Klein
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[*] posted on 12/20/2003 at 21:44
And this was my response:


"Catalog(ue)s!

This is definitely worth a new thread and could probably stir up a lot of useful duscussion/argument. . .

People in the US generally strart out using Scott because of it being written in English and readily accessible in libraries, etc. Then it serves as a handy numbering system for keeping track of want lists and for ordering stamos in an album (Note also that the Scott Specialized Allbums, used by many in the US, have spaces for stamps identified by Scott number.) This was my story, and I still keep an oldish copy of Scott for reference.

Michel and Stanley Gibbons are of course more detailed. But it does seem as though the future of our specialty lies with the excellent recent Russian Catalogs of Liapin and Zagorsky.

One additional resource that I have found very useful, though it does not seem to be in very wide circulation among Russian philatelists, is Rolf Weinbrecht's SPEZIALKATALOG R.S.F.S.R. UND U.D.S.S.R. 1918-1960 (self-published by the author in 1995; Rolf Weinbrecht, Kastanienallee 15, D-76789 Karlsruhe 21, Germany, over 500 pages -- unfortunately I don't recall the price). It is very well illustrated (though the quality of the pictures is not always great), with a huge amount of specialist info, varieties, etc. It also has the advantage that it is written in German, a language more accessible than Russian to many of us, like me, who can puzzle out info from the Russian catalogs but have trouble reading continuous text. I highly recommend it."

Let's hear from other members! :D :cool: :mad: :P
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MICHAEL MACKENZIE
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[*] posted on 12/21/2003 at 13:49


Rusalka, How often do you change the catalogue in the bottom of the bird cage? Also, Did you buy the Classic Specialized catalogue or just Volume 5? If you bought the Specialized catalog, Send the US section to me if it is unsoiled. Scott is excellent for US stamps and that is about the extent of their ability to value stamps.

For the beginner in America, I would recommend it above all others as it is as basic as one can get. It might be simple enough to say; "For the beginner, buy the catalogue that is in the language that you know best."

Jeff points out the obvious though, if your going to specialize in a particular area, you need (a) specialized catalogue(s).

With that said, Catalogues that carry my recommendations for Ukraine Tridents are:

Sonder-Katalog Ukraine, by Dr. Rudolf Seichter (in German)
The Postage Stamps of Russia 1917-1923, volume 2, by Dr. R.J. Ceresa (in English)
Independent Ukraine 1918-1920 by Peter Bylen (in English)

As far as pricing: Michel is closest to what you want to pay "for authentic stamps." Unfortunately they do not price all the overprints, only Sonder-Katalog Ukraine does that and those prices are in West German Marks of 1966. HMMMM
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[*] posted on 12/21/2003 at 16:02


OK, interesting topic!

Let me start by adding the following items. Please ignore any typos.
============================
Les-Timbres Poste
Marques postales - Entiers Varietes - Obliterationsd diverses, etc. de la Russie Imperiale
(published by the Cercle Philatelique France in Paris May 1964.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Les Timbres Poste
Varietes - Entiers - Documentations diverses (ouvrage specialise)
U.R.S.S. 1917-1941
(published by the Cercle Philatelique France in Paris March 1969.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katalog pochtovykh marok i tsel'nykh veshchei osnovnaya Rossiya
(Imperatorskaya Rossiya, RSFSR i SSSR)
Editor Chuchin, Issue I, 1928
izdanii Sovetskoi Filatelistichenskoi Assotsiatsii pri komissii VTsIK fonda im. V.I. Lenina pomoshchi besprizornym dityam. Moskva, 1-ya Tverskaya-Yamskaya, No. 3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katalog pochtovykh marok i tsel'nykh veshchei osnovnaya Rossiya
Imperialisticheskaya Rossiya
Editor Chuchin, Issue II, 1928
izdanii Sovetskoi Filatelistichenskoi Assotsiatsii pri komissii VTsIK fonda im. V.I. Lenina pomoshchi besprizornym dityam. Moskva, 1-ya Tverskaya-Yamskaya, No. 3
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MICHAEL MACKENZIE
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[*] posted on 12/21/2003 at 19:34


Gary, I show my ignorance for all to see. I understand the titles but almost nothing else. Can you put it in German, Spanish or English?

My French and Russian is lagging behind.:(
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[*] posted on 12/21/2003 at 19:43


If the masses cannot add to this and I hope they can, then I will. Sorry Michael but it is not about Ukraine - no tridents no wooden churches - just pure Russia. Now is the time for the knowledge to come forth.

We have talked a lot about catalogs and now is the time to make it happen.
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[*] posted on 12/21/2003 at 22:22


OK, guys & girls, may be something wrong with me, but I read this whole thread and still missing subject of this discussion.
Are you trying to answer the question which catalog is the best? Good luck.. This question is as old as collecting as a hobby... As we all know it really depends WHAT you are collecting, HOW ADVANCED you are, etc.
If you ask me (or somebody else - reasonably advanced in this area), what is the most complete description of specific subject - there is an answer to that.
If you ask me, what somebody should use if they just starting collecting - the answer is sort of obvious too - if you are in the US - find old Scott, if you are in the UK - Stanley Gibbons, in Germany -Michel. If your are somewhere else in the world - pick up any catalog in your NATIVE language. The main reason for this type of the selection is NOT a completeness of the catalog, but what local dealers and stamp shop owners using and what you can easy read. As simple as that. If for some reasons I am missing the point of this discussion, I apologize. In this case if somebody will clearly state the question - there is a good chance to get correct answer...
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MICHAEL MACKENZIE
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[*] posted on 12/21/2003 at 23:01


Geeeeeze, Louiiiise.
Greg, It looks like we are "on the same page".
Gary, you're point is taken. Pure Russia? Do you mean IMPERIAL RUSSIA? Anything after Imperial Russia isn't pure. (Not that Imperial Russia was.)It's an amalgamation of many cultures.
Do you mean SOCIALIST REPUBLIC?
Or maybe SOVIET RUSSIA?
RUSSIAN FEDERATION?

I haven't come across many worldwide collectors, but the few that I know only want to fill the spaces in the pre-printed pages. And there is nothing wrong with that.

We are here because we choose to do more than "fill in the spaces".

Any talk of catalogs should include Ukraine, South Russia, Siberia, FER, cancels, stationary, and any other philatelic endeavour you can think of.

PURE RUSSIA? BAH HUMBUG!
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[*] posted on 12/22/2003 at 03:31


Just thought it would be interesting to see what catalogs are out there. I'm sure the list is extensive! If anyone has a special reason for using any particular one, then let us know as well. Please remember that not all members are advanced collectors.

Greg and Michael are correct. Collectors use what is available or locally used and what covers the topic of their collection. I started with a couple of the earlier catalog about which I know. They all offer a glimpse into the area.
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[*] posted on 12/22/2003 at 04:07


Michael fortunately I do not have a bird in a cage...it was just the thought of where I could put it....I still need my copy for e-bay purposes. It's only Vol 5....which sadly fell off the table and because of its superior binding now has become Part A and B!!!

In Australia I had a choice of buying anything I wanted. I first bought S.G. (Europe part I, II, III) which included Armenia, Georgia the Baltic regions and yes even the Ukraine was included! However my then local Australian supplier of modern Russian issues at the time suggested I start with Michel as my primary source of reference. I have never looked back. It helped to improve my German, so it worked well for me.

After a few years I realized that Michel was full of ommissions. My updated 1998 edition failed to mention the special sheetlets which started to emerge in the late 1970's. There were a few other problems as well.

With the emergence the internet and Rossica on-line and the ready availability of the Specialized Russian catalogues over recent years, I went on a spending spree and snapped up everything I could. Finally I had the opportunity to gain specialized information and hopefully understand what I held in my increasing collection.

After reviewing all of them in tandem on my enormous desk along with my stamps I began to notice enormous discrepencies between them....I started to go crazy.

One of the most fustrating one was with Soloviev, both the 2002/3 edition and the 2003/4, volume 2.....(when will vol 1 appear??). These editions do not bother to date any of the stamps except by year. He only deals with stamps upto 1991, which is another annoyance, but an acceptable one.

His examples of stamp errors can be helpful, but in some cases are difficult to work with, because they are only simple diagrams rather than photographic images of the area of concern.

There is a section at the back of the book which lists all the Soviet definitives. This is where the categoriztion becomes tricky.

e.g.Michel e.g. lists the the Lenin issue of 1961 (20k,30k,50k) as part of the second issue comemmorating his so called 91st Birthday, while Soloviev chooses to list these issues as Definitives beloging to the 1961-66 set.

Furthermore, if you start to use Liapin vol 1 as well hoping to make some inroad into classifying the definitives... then think again. After some initial agreement in the earlier years, there is a divergence which issues belong to which set. Categorization becomes just as confusing when comparing dates and sets with those illustrated in Liapin.

These are only small examples of my fustrations with these particular specialist catalogues.

Liapin vol 2 seems to tire out and the information becomes repetitive. There is often a failure to identify reprints, except by mentioning that an issue has a paper variety, but without any cogent explanation. My impression is that there was more effort put into vol 1.

The new Standard Kollectsionercolour series by (Zargorsky) from SPb, are attractive to look at and I believe have good detail of errors and supplementary information. For Russian readers they hopefully provide excellent catalogues of choice.

Michael, Soloviev and Zargorsky vol 5(1), & vol 6 do have illustrated listings of either Soviet or modern Russian stationary (cards with printed stamps).

The Standard Collector has produced a small publication in 2002, which illustrates all postal cards and covers with printed stamps from 1923-1991.

It will be interesting to see what the new Zargorsky will do with the Imperial stationary, when that volume re-emerges....which seems to be an area of neglect for some reason.

Despite all these minor grumblings, each catalogue has something to give any level of collector. Each has something different to offer. It's really a personal choice how far to take one's interest.

I agree with Jeff, that it is upto Russia now to show us the way to specialization. They have the material and the expertise. It seems only right that they be given the opportunity on the world stage to produce superior publications on their own material.

Greg, there is no definitive answer as to what constitutes a complete answer to a philatelic subject. Research goes on, as does finding material to work with. It is a form of specialization in its own right. Anyone for a PhD in Russian Philately?

~;)~
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[*] posted on 12/22/2003 at 10:30


I think Rusalka described pretty much the state where a lot of us are. I have all of the above + two bookcases full of old issues of Philatelia USSR, BSRP, Rossica, Jamschik, Pochta journals, old Auction Catalogs, books on different subjects on Russian Philately, etc.
This constitutes on of the sides of our hobby: study, compare sources of information with the stamps you have, get frustrated with the result, find better source of information, find later errors in this one too, and ... get going... Never stop looking for better source of information - it is a death row for collecting and studying! ABSOLUTELY CORRECT AND COMPLETE CATALOG WILL NEVER BE WRITTEN! Sorry for stating the obvious, but this is one of those "absolutely correct and absolutely useless" answers.
I understand problem a collector facing and the only answer to that - ask. I mentioned this earlier - If you have a question about good source of information on SPECIFIC subject or period of time - ask and you will get an answer, but don't expect that that this book or catalog will be "THE BOOK", better one will be published in a future ( or you discover it yourself...)
Happy Holidays to everybody and HAPPY COLLECTING!
:D
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Jeff Klein
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[*] posted on 12/22/2003 at 15:50
Soviet Postal Stationary


Rusalka, could you give more information about the Standart-Kolleksia volume on Soviet Postal Stationary? I haven't heard of this.

In English, the so-called "Propaganda and Advertising Postcards of the 1920's and 1930's are collected in the excellent work:

Shalimoff and Shaw, CATALOGUE OF PROPAGANDA-ADVERTISING POSTAL CARDS OF THE USSR, 2002, published and available from the United Postal Stationary Society, PO Box 1792, Norfolk, VA 23501

For me, as a "social philatelist" who struggles with the Russian language, the great advantage of this publication is the full translation of the texts of these cards!
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[*] posted on 12/22/2003 at 18:20


Don't forget about any information dealing with postmarks as well. What have we along these lines on that bookshelf? Lists books, etc.?
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wink.gif posted on 12/23/2003 at 06:23
Hope this helps


Jeff, the full title of the catalogue is:

Katalog Pochtovx Kartochek (1923-91) i Konvertov c Original'nimi markami (1937-91) or

Catalogue of Postal Cards (1923-91) and Covers with Original stamps (1937-91)

Published by Standard Kollektsia 2002 in SPb. pp 64 @ 17.50 Euro

I purchased it from Philabooks in Germany: Contact is Burkhard Schneider who can be contacted:

info@philabooks.com

This will help to improve your Russian!

The nice thing about this particular catalogue is that it also provides B/W images of the special cancels used on each of the items. In some cases all multiple examples are illustrated. Otherwise it is published in full colour.

Hope you enjoy it!
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[*] posted on 12/23/2003 at 17:31


Is this "postcard and cover" catalog as good as Michel or H&G or?
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Rusalka
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biggrin.gif posted on 12/26/2003 at 23:06
Ok as a general guide


The Post Card and Cover catalogue only deals with Soviet material.

The postmarks are fairly small B/W images. Only the basics are provided.

As a general purpose guide it serves reasonably well, but not much more can be expected. Its not a book for specialists.

:D
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[*] posted on 12/27/2003 at 12:51


Does anybody have the Scott Classic Specialized Catalogue of Stamps & Covers? I do not have this one, but heard it lists Russian covers. The catalog claims to cover 1840-1940 and there is a 2004 edition on the street. At least one dealer on eBay is using it as a reference for a Russian cover.

Thanks in advance
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MICHAEL MACKENZIE
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[*] posted on 12/27/2003 at 15:30


Yup, 2004 in my hands. For postal history, it lists "on Cover" through 1882 Arms issues. Thats it.

Using it for reference? There are many paragraphs that put limits on what they base the values on. The cover needs to be in perfect condition, normal commercial usage, etc..

Take it with the same grain of salt as always with Scott.

Interestingly enough, they do list MNH values for stamps between 1931 and 1940.
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[*] posted on 12/30/2003 at 09:12


So far it does appear that there is definitely not a single catalog that covers it all. It would be interesting to find out why they all list the more common varieties, but have a few different "varieties" of their own. It makes me wonder where does the truth reside and which catalog to believe for anything other than the commonly-listed items. This appears to be more the case for stamps than covers so far.
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[*] posted on 12/30/2003 at 13:27


I think each publisher draws the line somewhere - how detailed they want to be based on their customer base and a market they targeting. Classical example: Russia J1-J9: Scott, Michel, Stanley-Gibbons (being general catalogs) list basic set and 1-2 varieties; Liapin, being a specialized catalog on Russia devotes - 2 pages, BUT there is a 50 page study on this issue published in Jamschik number of years ago full of varieties and they all real (I have ~70 pages of J1-J9 varieties in my collection and I did not even get close to level of details author lists there). So - the answer is - it is based on "market request".
How many people collect Russia as a part of their world-wide or geographic area collection? They probably pretty happy with Scott or Michel listings. Now - compare it with the number of people who needs 50 pages of details on this issue. If we think about it - everything became clear.
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Rusalka
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[*] posted on 12/30/2003 at 21:54
But I want more!


Another consideration is that Liapin perhaps out of previous political necessity, focuses only on Soviet material. He has a well developed section of the early Soviet definitives, but with successive years less research is evident in Vol. 2 especially with the 1950's period.

Each of the Specialist catalogues have a slightly different focus, which is to be expected. Each want to sell their product and must place a different emphasis, otherwise they will all become too similar and not worth our consideration.

For those us who require more details than provided by Liapin, Soloviev and Zargorsky etc. then these publications soon become inadequate. These are only catalogues after all.

Further details must be sought and relied upon by specialist journals such as Greg mentioned. The philatelic society journals start where the specialist catalogues leave off. Therefore the orientation of those "market requests" changes. It becomes internalized....within philatelic societies which rely completely upon the type of members who join and their willingness to actively participate or divulge information.

The majority of ordinary collectors are happy just to have a single copy of each stamp issue. With time they may become more selective and "advance" to collecting varieties.

Only an elite few of us around the world prefer to specialize even further: be it SPb postmarks on Imperial stamps or enjoy collecting printing errors/oddities etc. The problem is where to obtain the relevant information to appreciate what we have.

Writing/reading specialist articles about our findings helps us all.

In conclusion, it is not only based on "market requests" but knowing where to look....beyond the bookstore, and knowing how to apply that information.

If we are discussing general market requests, that has been achieved. There are probably a little too many ordinary catalogues on the market now catering for different language bases.

If I request something specialized who will listen and respond?



:D
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[*] posted on 1/1/2004 at 18:14


I read this thread with great interest since I have every catalogue mentioned with the exception of Zargorsky and that is because we haven't had a chance to purchase it yet. (If someone can tell me where we can get it, let me know). I also have many more not even mentioned.

So I now give my nickel's worth. Never will there be a catalogue that will cover every detail of a specialized collecting interest. New discoveries are made all the time. Just look at our "Fly Specker" as proof of this. And as the points of view of an individual prevents them from including certain periods in their catalogue, thus does that catalogue become incomplete.

The more research that goes into the catalogue, the more details the catalogue has and the more expensive it becomes. Finally the catalogue gets to the point that the collector would find it so full of information that the collector would find it mind boggling. And once again the author is faced with the questions of language and updates and simply areas of interest. And none of this even lets you, the collector, begin to evaluate your collections until someone puts a value or rating to varieties. eBay is certainly not a particularily good source.

So its back to the catalogues that fit the collecting interest. Basic catalogues for basic interests and more advanced catalogues for more advanced interests. In the end, we get out of it what we want by discussing it here in this forum.:)
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[*] posted on 1/1/2004 at 21:48


Which other catalogues do you work with?

There are a few more which I failed to mention e.g. Pevzner and the two volume Soviet Stamp catalogue published by Soyuz Pechat in 1984, which I believe lead to the Pevzner publication in 1995, but without the detail. Both these publications are in Russian.

Then of course there is Lobachevsky for the Imperial issues.

The Zargorsky series is available at Philabooks (pl. see my previous discussion)

Now that products from Imperial Russia are acceptable and no longer politically inapropriate for inclusion into modern Russian publications, let us hope this sadly neglected area will soon appear in more Russian specialist catalogues soon.
:P
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biggrin.gif posted on 1/8/2004 at 16:39
catalogues/handbooks


An interesting thread but it seems with some big ommisions in the reference works refered to. There are a number of other specialised works which provide much more in-depth information on specific aspects of the hobby. these are often of the handbook type with pricing guides but not updated in this respect. these include:
1. The excellent series by Dr R.J Ceresa on the civil war stamps there are many volumes of this work and all are excellent in the detail they provide for the specialist.
2. The Russian related handbooks published by Barefoot in his european Philately series which offer an intermediate level of detail and also provide individual catalogues for areas such as Georgia.
3.For Zemstvo stamps there is Chuchin and Artuchovs 4 volume catalogue plus O.A Faberges Zemstvo Post book in glorious colour, not to mention the corinphila auction catalogue that accompanied the Faberge sale. If you are lucky you might just stumble upon a copy of schmidts early work as well.
4. for the Arms issues there is Leonard Tanns "The arms issues of 1902-20"
5. for the Romanov fans there is Tann's "The Imperial Romanovs - a study of the 1913 Jubilee issue"
6.For postmark addicts there are: Kiryushkin and Robinson - "Russian Postmarks an introduction and guide", The Baillie & Peel work "St.Petersburg the Imperial post-its postmarks and other postal markings 1765-1914" (available from Terry Page of the BSRP), "russian railway postmarks" by Kiryushkin and robinson, Levins wonderful "The mute cancellations of Russia", combs and warr's Moscow postmarks and Dobins "Postmarks of the Russian empire -pre-adhesive period".
7. For censor buffs there is Michaelove and skiptons two volume general work and there is Speekaerts marvellous two volumes on "Russian Postal censorship 1914-18".
8. for those wishing to know more about facts on russian philately (collectors, journals, literature etc there is Michael Kuhns "Facts on Russian Philately"
9. If you are interested in Soviet airmails then you can try "Via the Red Skies - the development of Soviet airmail 1922-1945" by G.adolph Ackerman. supplemented by his other book on "soviet Air Fleet/Osoaviakhim stamps/labels".
10. Anyone interested in the advertising collars of the 1930's would be advised to pick up a copy of A.S Mramornov's booklet on Postage advertising stamps (Moscow 1997).
11.Moving into the cinderella field then A.N.Nedaivodin's "Catalogue of Charitable Stamps - collections to aid invalids of war 1922-23" is a good start followed by Forbin for the imperial period and for real detail The Safroneev catalogue which is unfortunately very scarce but also deals with both Imperial and soviet revenues.
Also in this category are: "Vignettes of Russia" (Marcovitch 1971) and "Catalogue of non-postal labels of the Russian empire 1905-1917 War Charity issues" again by Nedaivodin published in 1998
12. For the "used abroad" there is of course T&S which is still the bible simply because no-one has ever published anything since they did in the 1950's.
13. If Ukraine is your thing then besides the appropriate ceresa vilumes you might try the following: Alfred Stollberg, "The provisional and private issues of 1992-94", "The Provisional Postage stamps of Ukraine 1992-95" by Hryhoriy Lobko, Independant Ukraine 1918-20 by Peter Bylen, "Ukrainian DP camp, POW camp, government in exile and National council issues" (Ukranian philatelic and numismatic society.) the seichter collections auction catalogue and "The Austro-Hungarian army in Ukraine censor Handstamps 1914-18 by Roman Dubyniak and Peter cybaniak of the austrian stamps club of great britain.
14. The czech legion stamps are covered in detail in "The field Post of the Czechoslovak and allied forces in Russia 1918-20 compiled by the Czechoslovak Philatelic Society of Great Britain.

There are also works out there on postcards and some of the specialised money catalogues provide more information on the currency stamps than do the philatelic catalogues.

Hoe the above is useful.
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[*] posted on 1/12/2004 at 18:14


Absolutely excellent!
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