Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
Reperforated stamps
I'm opening a new discussion: re-perforated stamps.
Can we consider it forgery or repaired stamps?
Here is one example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=297937505...
I consider this stamp (Scott 287. perf. 14.5) to be re-perforated from its cheap brother (Scott 287a).
Here is an image:
|
|
|
Jeff
Super Administrator
Posts: 767
Registered: 10/18/2002
Location: Herndon, Virginia
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's developing...
|
|
Andrey, why do you consider this a reperf? I've tried to put a perf gauge on a number of stamps that fit somewhere in between a number of perf
varieties, but never really considered them being reperfs. Is there something about this stamp that makes you think it has been altered?
Thanks,
Jeff
|
|
|
MICHAEL MACKENZIE
Major Philatelist
Posts: 402
Registered: 11/2/2002
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ok
|
|
Altering a stamp to defraud the buyer constitutes a Forgery.
A repaired stamp returns the stamp to its original state.
Perforating a normally imperf stamp with the intent to sell it as an original perforated stamp follows the first description.
|
|
|
oldteddy
Major Philatelist
Posts: 378
Registered: 12/31/2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Perplexed
|
|
Good question
Jeff; I second. I've already had a chance to post on this board a suggestion that it's not enough to post a stamp (or postmark or whatever)
and say: "It's a fake" (or reperf or whatever), it's important to EXPLAIN why the person posted it thinks it's a fake, as
detailed as possible. Not everybody has SO EXPERIENCED EYE to see what an expert sees. So it's important to EDUCATE, not only to inform... In
this case TO EXPLAIN how Andrey determined that it's a reperf (just from looking at the screen image, as I understand) would be much help...
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
Well, lets start some education....
Back to the stamp in question.
1st, when any stamp had been re-perforated it become to be smaller in size. When you will compare this stamp to genuine 287 or 287a it will be smaller
horizontally and vertically, especially horizontally both margins are narrow).
(In some cases the image can be downloaded and compared to the image of genuine stamps).
2nd and most important, the type of perforation on those stamps were harrow 14:14,5. Take a look at all corners - it is not what is suppose to be.
Holes are not aligned. (see genuine stamp image down below)
3rd, almost all of those stamps (and it is why mint copies are such valuable) were postally used in 1925. Take a look at the cancel. Is it 1927? A
bit late for this stamp to be postally used.
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
Continue education....
Another stamp I considered to be re-perforated.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=297943027...
This time it is privately re-perforated from its imperforated (much less valuable) version.
Why?
Here is simple answer.
All perf. 12.5 & 13.5 stamps were issued in 1925 without background.
All imperf. stamps were issued in 1926 with light blue background (take a look at Lenin's face - it has to be white on genuine ones and light
blue on fakes ones). There is also light blue background visible on all margins.
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
Here is comparison image of all 4 genuine stamps:
Imperforated,
perf 13.5,
perf. 12,5 and
perf. 10.5
|
|
|
oldteddy
Major Philatelist
Posts: 378
Registered: 12/31/2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Perplexed
|
|
Perforation type
I think at least one thing can be added to Andrey's brilliant analysis of the reperf LIMONKA - the genuine one has what is called COMB
PERFORATION in which case the corners where horisonatl and vertical perforations meet are usually very neat. Look at the corners of that ebay stamp -
it IS NOT COMB PEREFORATION. Compare it with the good one posted by Andrey.
|
|
|
Gary
Deceased
Posts: 2356
Registered: 10/18/2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This seller has a history of questionable material as well. Perhaps that is the first clue?
Andrew's analysis would apply to any stamp and not just the lemonka.
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
oldteddy !
Correction: Those stamps have harrow type of perforation not combined.
But as I said and you wrote in different words there - all corners where horisontal and vertical perforations:
1. meet are usually very neat (combined perf.).
2. made are neat (harrow perf.)
That is the difference - harrow perf. all lines of perforation made at the same time !!!
Combined perf. (Russian - "grebenka" - 3 sides of the stamps in one row
perforated, then perf. machinery shifted to the next row of stamps and then 2 row perforated on 3 sides and so on.
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
Looks like our "Samovar" works - bid was placed on the 1st item in this tread and lately removed.
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
Interesting arithmetic......
Imperforated 10 rub. stamps can be bought for $15.00-$25.00 in mint never hinged original gum condition.
To "make" professionally looking perforation one needs to spent another $10.00-$15.00.
And now not very well knowledgeable novice collector will spend $150.00 for it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=297943027...
|
|
|
oldteddy
Major Philatelist
Posts: 378
Registered: 12/31/2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Perplexed
|
|
GREBENKA
My RUSSO-ENGLISH-FRENCH-GERMAN philatelic dictionary translates GREBENCHATAYA ZUBTSOVKA as COMB PERFORATION, but as long as we're talking about
the same type of perforation - it doesn't matter. So looks like it's not the best dictionary in the world, but we came to the same
conclusion about the corners - they are from the WRONG perforation.
|
|
|
Gary
Deceased
Posts: 2356
Registered: 10/18/2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What do the English language catalogs call it, if anything?
|
|
|
MICHAEL MACKENZIE
Major Philatelist
Posts: 402
Registered: 11/2/2002
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ok
|
|
Stroke: Holes/perforations on all four corners are even.
Line: Holes/perforations on all four corners are uneven.
Scott Specialized Catalog of US Stamps and Covers, 2004.
Would you like the page number?
Or should I scan it and post it?
|
|
|
Gary
Deceased
Posts: 2356
Registered: 10/18/2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ha Ha! I think we do use other terms?! If you do not know what they are, do not respond.
|
|
|
MICHAEL MACKENZIE
Major Philatelist
Posts: 402
Registered: 11/2/2002
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ok
|
|
Gary, I hope you didn't think I was joking.
|
|
|
msmike
Major Philatelist
Posts: 108
Registered: 6/11/2003
Location: Carson City, NV
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hoping for a Long Spring
|
|
And what shall we call imperf stamps made from perf stamps? Fakes, forgeries, counterfeits or Trash?
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
Trimmed trash, I think
 
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
And the nice person who is trying to build a good Russian collection bought this forgery "303a" at $212.50.
I'm sorry for you Michael !!!
|
|
|
Andrey
Major Philatelist
Posts: 298
Registered: 3/17/2003
Location: New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: What is Mood?
|
|
And the 1st stamp in this tread - "LIMONKA" closed without any bids.
|
|
|
oldteddy
Major Philatelist
Posts: 378
Registered: 12/31/2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Perplexed
|
|
About perforation - again
To Michael;
I'm VERY sorry to argue with such an outstanding authority as SCOTT catalog, but there are TWO types of perforation that make even corners. Let
me DESCRIBE them and give RUSSIAN and ENGLISH terms for them TO THE BEST OF my knowledge:
1: Line (LINEYNAYA) perforation - perforation is done first in one direction (horisontal or vertical) and then in another. It makes corners of
UNPREDICATBLE shape - uneaven more often than even.
2: Comb (GREBENCHATAYA) perforation - is being done with a device which has pins arranged as one horisontal line and many short vertical lines - like
a COMB. That device makes perforation ONE ROW AT A TIME ON THREE SIDES and then moves down one row. It leaves TOP corners even and neat and lower
corners not so even, but much better than LINE perforation.
3: Harrow - or "stroke" in Scott terminology (RAMOCHNAYA) perforation - made for the whole sheet at once, with one stroke of the device.
Leaves ALL corners even and neat.
I do not know about US stamps, but MANY Russian stamps, especially of the early period (before 1960) are made with COMB perforation - and it always
stated in Russian catalogs, even general ones.
|
|
|
MICHAEL MACKENZIE
Major Philatelist
Posts: 402
Registered: 11/2/2002
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ok
|
|
READ GARY'S QUESTION OLDTEDDY!
I only answered it, passing no judgement as to the accuracy of the information.
If you want an argument: WRITE THE EDITORS OF SCOTT, not me!
|
|
|
oldteddy
Major Philatelist
Posts: 378
Registered: 12/31/2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Perplexed
|
|
I've got it!
Thank you, Michael.
|
|
|
![[*]](./images/samovar/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
