The Samovar

A separate forum for post 1991 material?

kiompie - 6/25/2007 at 11:14

Just a question. Would it be possible to create a separate forum for post 1991 material (flyspecking, philately, postal history).

It would be great to pool postings on "modern rubbish". Like this one:

I purchased a neat small company archive (almost all covers with content!) some years ago which is 100% genuine and I would love to pool this information. One example is the following cover. I do have Russian examples also, but this Ukrainian one is pretty interesting. Franking consists of a handwritten notice of the amount due which was subsequently cancelled! No stamps or special markings involved. The last image is that of a second cover from the same period.

The cover, sent by airmail from Kharkov, Ukraine to Germany:



Handwritten and cancelled franking (dated October 15th 1992):



The letter inside, the content of which is very typical for the 100 or so covers in my possession that were sent to this German agency/company:



And, finally, a second example of a handwritten franking, dated October 17th 1992:



If anyone is interested I could do a post/article on this archive material. A lot of work, but I am willing to do it if there is an interest. This is postal and this is history too ;)

jlechtanski - 6/25/2007 at 14:17

I have seen covers with the post office TP (taxe percu) handstamp filled in with the amount and used to indicate postage paid during the transition period.

The first cover is similar in that there is a handwritten TP and the amount.

kiompie - 6/25/2007 at 14:27

Yeah, I have a few of those myself. I am currently busy arranging covers in a folder to see how many different types of handstamps there are (at least in my collection) and to sort out the rates. One thing I have noticed is that on some covers there is a signature on the TP handstamp, of a postal worker I assume, and on others there isn't.

A question. Do you have any idea what the handstamp AR stands for?

jlechtanski - 6/25/2007 at 14:44

Is that on one of the covers?

It could be “avis de reception”

A UPU convention equivalent to “advice of reception” or “return receipt requested” in English.

Some countries issued AR stamps.

kiompie - 6/25/2007 at 14:49

Great. Thanks, jlechtanski. It is indeed on a (registered) cover, "AR" within a square. I really have some catching up to do knowledge-wise :-)

Gary - 6/25/2007 at 17:01

Is the post in Russia doing the same thing as the post in Ukraine during this time?

kiompie - 6/25/2007 at 18:20

Good question. I have only seen a few examples from Russia proper where shortage of stamps was a problem. Most of the time I find value adjustable hand or meter marks. But then again, my collection is really not that extensive.

I'll show you one cute example that I have. The following cover was sent from Kaluga to Moscow on November 01st 1993. It bears a marking stating that postage was paid (if I am not mistaken) at the post office. The going rate at the time was 15 rubles for domestic letters. On the back is the Moscow arrival cancel dated November 5th.





I have TP examples from Brest, Belorussia and Alma Alta (Kazachstan), but the large majority are from Ukraine. And then there is this cover, from Dzerzhinsk, where 3 kopeke Soviet stamps were upgraded to 3 ruble stamps to reach the required rate, on November 10th 1992, of 45 rubles. The first 3 kopeke stamp on the left bears a signature. This cover is part of the archive I first mentioned. I also note that the first three stamps were cancelled differently and later than the others, which is still a bit of a mystery to me. I can think of only one explanation: a tariff change in between the two dates from 15 (since July10th the official rate) to 45 rubles (normally from December 12th to February 15th). But why was the letter not sent right away then? The initial row of five upgraded 3 kopeke stamps should still have been the right rate for a letter sent to Germany.






The first three stamps were cancelled on November 14th, the others on the 10th? The oblast is the same, but I cannot read the PO name on the first cancel.


jlechtanski - 6/26/2007 at 10:24

Just a wild guess.

The letter was returned to the sender for additional postage. But, no markings to indicate the deficiency would seem strange.

kiompie - 6/26/2007 at 11:01

Interesting theory, maybe that is why all the 3 kopeke stamps have a handwritten ballpoint mark on them. I need to find a way to identify the first and larger cancel.

jlechtanski - 6/26/2007 at 14:18

Are the markings on the kopeck stamps an indication that they are upgraded to ruble values? On what date did kopeck stamps become equivalent to ruble stamps? That would good to know for researching rates.

Assuming that the letter was returned because the rate changed from 15R to 45R, the fact that the 3k stamp on the left also has the ballpoint pen marking would indicate that the stamp came from the same post office. So I am thinking that the postmark is just a different type of postmark from the same post office.

Gary - 6/26/2007 at 17:13

Can we relate the Ukrainian activity with the Russian activity during this period of time? Guess I thought they had different postal authorities? Has the UPNS published anything on this to date? They my be able to help here.

kiompie - 6/26/2007 at 18:18

jlechtanski: As for the markings, I have no idea what they really mean. I am just guessing.

Gary: Thanks for the pointers. I'll do some research on this and I shall contact the UPNS.

jlechtanski - 6/26/2007 at 18:39

They certainly did have different postal authorities.

I would say the activity in Russia during this period was caused by shortages of stamps, serious inflation, and revaluation of the ruble. The use of old Soviet stamps or whatever could be improvised by the postal workers had to make due until the new stamps could be printed and distributed. Other former Soviet Republics faced similar problems.

Ukraine also had shortages of stamps and serious inflation. But it also needed to establish its own identity. Soviet Russian stamps were used until November, 1993. Ukrainian stamps were issued but constatntly were revalued because of inflation. They used overprinted Soviet Russian stamps, cash register receipts, hand stamped imprints, TP (taxe percu) impressions, etc. produced locally.

kiompie - 6/26/2007 at 21:08

So, basically, they faced the same problems to a more or lesser degree, apart from the identity issue (although I have seen stamps with ROCCIA overprints too, possibly bogus). What strikes me is that the evolution of postal rates seems to be similar in this transition period. I'll check this in more detail, but so far I have been able to check Ukraine rates with my tariff tables for the Russian Federation (up until late 1993). The only difference being the dates on which a new tariff came into being.

Another interesting issue to explore: the late use of Soviet era cancels on Ukraine stamps/provisionals. I have one dated 30.08.94! Anyway, I'll have a more detailed look into this.

jlechtanski - 6/26/2007 at 21:36

...and to state the obvious, the late use of Soviet-style postmarks in Russia itself in the post-Soviet era as illustrated by the above examples.

I also have Soviet-style postmarks on mail from independent Moldova, Belarus, Kirghizstan, Turkmenistan, etc.

Leroux - 6/28/2007 at 09:59

1 Hr early - I was asking the same " Question " as title by you :)
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1657

jlechtanski - 6/28/2007 at 17:35

I would say that if more post-1991 material were posted, a separate forum would be a good idea.

Leroux - 6/29/2007 at 11:23

I taugh there were some around - A while ago - May have to check again - Re-assemble all previous posting related - And see if any - Could be updated :)
Scanning some of mine is a real pain - Scanner ain`t that good - Althrough as information gors - It may be just as good - Will see if I can get something going in a little while.

post-1991

Fergana - 6/30/2007 at 17:21

In the context of post-1991 collecting, what comprises "Russia and area"?

Leroux - 6/30/2007 at 19:54

Fews links from here ... :)
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=477
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=518
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=827
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=833
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=957
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=825
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1022
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1389
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1656

Leroux - 6/30/2007 at 19:56

Quote:
Originally posted by Fergana
In the context of post-1991 collecting, what comprises "Russia and area"?


Perhaps If I understand - The question - FSU or Former USSR ... OI guess.Althrough some may want to exclude the " Non CIS Members " ... :)

Better ask a " Long Standing Philatelist for this advise on the subject (Perhaps) ... :P

tedim2 - 6/30/2007 at 22:17

Quote:
Originally posted by Fergana
In the context of post-1991 collecting, what comprises "Russia and area"?


I would say Russia and area post 1991, would exclude all new independent states recognized by UPU and any regions assigned to the independent states that produce stamps but do not have legal standing under UPU. Unlike the period of civil war independent states are recognized by the Russian Federation and therefore no “period” conflict exist. IMHO

kiompie - 7/1/2007 at 11:14

For me Russia & Area includes anything with a tie to the former Soviet Union, be it Soviet postmarks, mixed frankings, etc. A Ukraine cover with a Ukraine stamp and a Ukraine postmark would be excluded, for instance. The transition period, or the break-up of the SU, is IMHO postal history connected to the former SU.

Leroux - 7/1/2007 at 16:21

Yep ain`t going to be easy to define ... :)
I was going to say - Former USSR during the preiod of 1992 - 1994 or 1991 - 1995 (Plus variations - Like Oditties) ... :)
A dex for all those " Fantasies " ... Etc :)
Just for those fews years - The fields of studies are " Huge and Various " ... :)
Perhaps;In few many years - It will be more define and agreed ... Upon one way to do it - Rather than the many more various possibilities of today :)
Anyhow - I was thinking of doing a forum - My way ... Hence anyone wanting to agreed with me Would be " Welcome " the others would be welcome to - Althrough we all have to leave together (My House) still hopping for the more " Mature " philatelist would be so kind as to showing us the way ... :)

Leroux - 7/1/2007 at 16:33

Let do this one ... :)
* Unusual perhaps ... Shortage of postage (looklike) ... Any idea (Click on Thumb to enlarge - Store Outside this server)
* Novosibirk 08 December 1994

Leroux - 7/1/2007 at 16:43

From Mena Ukr (Click to Enlarge)

Leroux - 7/1/2007 at 16:49

Well that about all;For today :)
Looklike " I " finaly busted my scanner :mad:
Sorry " Guys " ... Some other days...Apolozies :cool:

jlechtanski - 7/1/2007 at 17:40

The first cover looks like it was run through a meter and then parts of a second meter was cut out and pasted on it. The circular date cutout may be covering the circular date part of the original meter.

jlechtanski - 7/1/2007 at 17:55

The second (Mena, Ukraine) looks like the 300 krb. air rate to non-CIS countries valid from 30 Aug 1993 to 5 Dec 1993.

What is the date on the postmark - 13 Oct 93?

The Soviet stamp would have no value.

I think it would be better to have placed these covers in separate threads to make it easier to comment.

Leroux - 7/2/2007 at 09:28

Quote:
Originally posted by jlechtanski
The first cover looks like it was run through a meter and then parts of a second meter was cut out and pasted on it. The circular date cutout may be covering the circular date part of the original meter.


:) Yes kind of mine thinking - Althrough " I " saw it like - Bad day - Run Out of Ink for the Meter ... Nevermind we will " Photocopy " and " Cut-Out " some of the (Already Recieved Letter ... s) ... Applied the " Cut-Out " and post the danm thing (More than lickly the postage is pay by the local state etc ... On Monthly or other basics.
Original letter was from or what appear to be " University " of something.
P.s...Forgotten in the previous post - The " Cut-Out " have been photocopies (Doutful althrough " I " haven`t any info - These could have been made " Localy " at the post)

Leroux - 7/2/2007 at 09:29

Quote:
Originally posted by jlechtanski
The second (Mena, Ukraine) looks like the 300 krb. air rate to non-CIS countries valid from 30 Aug 1993 to 5 Dec 1993.

What is the date on the postmark - 13 Oct 93?

The Soviet stamp would have no value.

I think it would be better to have placed these covers in separate threads to make it easier to comment.


Yes the date is correct.

kiompie - 7/2/2007 at 18:04

Hi, Leroux.

Your first example does raise some suspicions :-)

First of all the rate. 900 + 750 = 1650 does not correspond with any tariff I know within the given timeframe (late 1994). This letter abroad should have been franked 1200 rubles.

However, given the 900 rubles meter (if my eyes do not deceive me) this letter could have been sent earlier and by air mail. Between 05.01.1994 and 12.01.1994 the going rate for airmail abroad was 900 rubles. But then again, I do not see any airmail markings. Is there an arrival postmark on the back?

And those 750 rubles? That was the rate for registered mail within the Russian federation between 05.15.1995 and 11.01.1995...

And why would anyone paste a postmark cut-out on a cover? The ink shortage theory seems unlikely since they would have had to destroy another letter that was ready to be sent the very same day (say, of the previous customer):D

But you do raise an interesting question. Does anyone know of recorded ink shortages in Russian postal history? If so, how did the postal authorities deal with that ?

Leroux - 7/2/2007 at 20:14

kiompie as far as " I`m " aware - Since these (My Understanding) the post is from a " University " the rate may have been somehow of various level - And for " Air Mail " ... Perhaps " Hand written " next to the UK Adress.
There is not other " Marking " ... So no date of arrivals - Seem to be the case for most (UK Unregistered Covers) that " I " got.
Interestingly " I " got fews from this erea (All got the same postage) which is 1650R to UK Adresses - Same time frame - More or less (Sadly can`t make scans - Scanner freezed on me - The mecanical parts broked) till " I " can get another - Can`t provide futher additionals info (Visual) ...

kiompie - 7/3/2007 at 04:56

Leroux, it is too bad you cannot show more examples. It is true that there are "academic rates" but I would have thought them to be cheaper than the ordinary rates... But then again, I am still a novice so it is quite possible that I am missing something.

Leroux - 7/3/2007 at 08:37

kiompie - Same here " Novice " Is my name to :)
Anyhow ... Collected massive amount of materials in the early years - Got seriously busy (Private life and Work) so,philately got side line.Now,I am back with a little moe time ... So novice for me to :)
I have already scans some Ukr Covers ... Will bring some up - As soon as possible - Althrough still planning to have a dedicated forum for such materials - With entry " Only " if members of " Sister Society " ... Got to save " Our Sister Society " ... Like Rossica - BSRP - WSRP and fews others.
http://www.rossica.org/Samovar/viewthread.php?tid=1657

jlechtanski - 7/3/2007 at 12:45

I have not seen a 1650 rate either.

One thing that would be useful is a list of the various rates post-1991.

I have taken some notes over the years and can post what I know.

I have rate changes for:
1992 Jan 2, Feb 1, Feb 18, Jun 10, Jun 24, Jul 6, Nov 4, Dec 12
1993 Mar 1, Apr 26, May 15, Jun 23, Jul 15, Aug 2, Aug 10, Aug 30, Dec 20
1994 Jan 10, Apr 25, Jul 1, Dec 1
1995 Mar 1, May 15, Nov 1
1996 Jan 1, Mar 30, Nov 5
1997 Jan 1, Nov 10
1998 Jan 1, Nov 1
1999 Feb 1, Oct 10
2000 etc.

I do not have records of where I found this information. Does it look complete?

As I said, if it looks complete I can post it and we can make additions and changes to it. We could make notes like Leroux' 1650 letters from late 1994.

kiompie - 7/3/2007 at 15:49

Okay, jlechtanski,

Here is what I gleaned from the Michel catalogue, Russian Federation rates:

1992: Jan 1, Feb 1, June 10, Dec 10 (domestic)
1993: April 26, Aug 2 (domestic)
1994: Jan 1, July 1, Dec 20 (domestic)
1995: May 15, Nov 1 (domestic)
1996: March 30, Nov 5 (domestic)
1997: Nov 10 (domestic)

1992: Jan 1, Feb 2, June 10, Dec 10 (Republics)
1993: Feb 15, June 23, Dec 20 (Republics)
1994: May 1, Dec 1 (Republics)
1995: March 1 (Republics)
1996: Jan 1 (Republics)
1997: Jan 1 (Republics)

1992: Jan 1, Feb 18, July 10, Dec 10 (abroad)
1993: Feb 15, June 23, Dec 20 (abroad)
1994: May 1, Dec 1 (abroad)
1995: March 1 (abroad)
1996: Jan 1 (abroad)
1997: Jan 1 (abroad)

kiompie - 7/3/2007 at 15:56

And for Ukraine so far I have:

1992: Jan 2 (domestic + abroad), May 10 (domestic), July 9 (abroad)
1993: Jan 1 (domestic + abroad), May 1 (domestic), July 15 (abroad, close), Aug 30 (abroad, far away), Sept 10 (domestic), Dec 6 (domestic)

jlechtanski - 7/3/2007 at 16:59

Wow! I didn't know the Michel had rates. Does it have rates from the 1920s to the 1980s?

My notes seem close to Michel. Since I already have them on the PC, I will go ahead and post them for all to see and use.

Hopefully there won't be too many errors to correct.

jlechtanski - 7/3/2007 at 17:37

I have placed my notes in the Postal History - Rates forum.

Correction

kiompie - 7/3/2007 at 19:32

"Does it have rates from the 1920s to the 1980s?"

Yes, you need to consult the Michel stationery catalogue:

"Ganzsachen-Katalog Europa Ost"

As soon as I have some time, I'll post their data.

Fergana - 7/4/2007 at 05:00

I think it would be better to have placed these several topics in separate threads to make it easier to follow and to comment. I would like to contribute but to cover everything would be too time-consuming.
Placing details of postage rates in the separate "Postage Rates" folder is most welcome.

Leroux - 7/4/2007 at 09:24

Quote:
Originally posted by Leroux
kiompie as far as " I`m " aware - Since these (My Understanding) the post is from a " University " the rate may have been somehow of various level - And for " Air Mail " ... Perhaps " Hand written " next to the UK Adress.
There is not other " Marking " ... So no date of arrivals - Seem to be the case for most (UK Unregistered Covers) that " I " got.
Interestingly " I " got fews from this erea (All got the same postage) which is 1650R to UK Adresses - Same time frame - More or less (Sadly can`t make scans - Scanner freezed on me - The mecanical parts broked) till " I " can get another - Can`t provide futher additionals info (Visual) ...


Ok quick check reveal - Same Size of letter to Uk from same erea (Same scan provided - Novosibirsk ... As follow.
* 07.12.94 = 1650R (No Other Info)
* 08.12.94 = 1650 R (No Other Info) - Another letter.
* 16.03.95 = 1500R (No Other Info) ... Month appear to be 3
* 04.04.95 = 1900R (No Other Info)
* 07.07.95 = 1900R (No Other Info)
* 23.05.97 = 3000R (On Air Mail Letter)
* 31.05.97 = 3500R (Air Mial - Hand Written)
Small Size - Soviet Sytle.
* 31.03.95 = 1450R (No Other Info)
Larger Size Letter (Same Erea) ... Avg 6.5x9 inches or 16x23cm
* 04.07.95 - (No Other Mark) - 1500R
* 19.07.95 - Air Mail Mark = 1900R
* 04.04.96 - Air Mail Mark = 3000R
That was a " Quick Check " for this part of " Russia " ... If that help.

jlechtanski - 7/4/2007 at 09:30

That 1650 rate must be the "organization rate." Organizations paid a higher rate than ordinary citizens.

At least that seems to be the case for the several rates I have in the 1990s rate charts.

The key is to check if the cover is from an individual or an organization.

Leroux - 7/4/2007 at 11:04

Quote:
Originally posted by jlechtanski
That 1650 rate must be the "organization rate." Organizations paid a higher rate than ordinary citizens.

At least that seems to be the case for the several rates I have in the 1990s rate charts.

The key is to check if the cover is from an individual or an organization.


As far as " I " can make it up - It was a fast check - Most if not all - Are for what " Appears " unversity Related Mails " ...